Another state park and national park carry questions

[CC Italian]

Ok I need a little help. My girl and I are going on a camping trip across Texas and making one stop in New Mexico. Most are state parks but a few are federal. I know this subject has been asked before and I searched the website but I just can't find everything I am looking for. I will first list the campsites we are hopefully going to.

Texas State Parks that I will be camping at:
-Seminole Canyon State Park & Historic Site
-Davis Mountains State Park
-Palo Duro Canyon State Park
-Caprock Canyons State Park & Trailway
-Lake Brownwood State Park
-Inks Lake State Park
-Lake Somerville State Park & Trailway This is the park that I know the Army Corp of Engineers is on. The corp. manages the Rocky Creek and Yegua Creek areas. I want to go to the Birch Creek State Park and Nails Creek State Park area of the lake. Does this mean that the whole lake is off limits to me as for carrying or just Rocky and Yegua Creek areas?
Here is a link to the Corp website http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/visito ... Id=M217110

Texas State Parks I will be visiting for the day
-Balmorhea State Park
-Longhorn Cavern State Park
-Enchanted Rock State Natural Area

Also where in state parks can I not carry? Can I go into all buildings? Restroom, visitors center etc.

Federal Parks
-Guadalupe Mountains National Park (This park looks good to go but where can I find a resource that tells me where I CAN NOT (off limits) go in a national park.
-Carlsbad Caverns National Park (Copied this from the park website, looks like a no go) Mainly the last paragraph. Basically I can go into the park but can't not step foot in the caves.

Firearms



As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in Carlsbad Caverns National Park.



It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park. As a starting point, please visit our state’s website. [New Mexico Department of Public Safety]



Federal law continues to prohibit firearms in certain facilities, such as park visitor centers. These facilities are posted with appropriate notices at public entrances. At Carlsbad Caverns, firearms are not allowed in the Visitor Center, including the restaurant, gift shop, and kennel, the park’s maintenance yard, park office buildings, or inside caves where guided tours occur, including Carlsbad Cavern, Slaughter Canyon Cave, and Spider Cave. The new federal law has no effect on existing laws and regulations regarding the use of firearms in national parks or hunting. Hunting, target shooting, and any other use of firearms are not allowed in Carlsbad Caverns National Park.


I will call the parks to make sure. Should I just ask if the Army Corp of Engineers manages any part of the park?

Any links or info would be appreciated.
Thanks

[RPB]

Check the "Controlling Authority" at TPWD ...

-Inks Lake State Park = OK (I've carried there before)
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat/fi ... akes/inks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reservoir Controlling Authority
Lower Colorado River Authority
3700 Lake Austin Blvd.
Austin, Texas 78703
(512) 473-3200 or 1(800) 776-5272


-Longhorn Cavern State Park = OK


-Enchanted Rock State Natural Area = OK


-Lake Brownwood State Park = OK
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat/fi ... brownwood/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reservoir Controlling Authority
Brown County Water Control and Irrigation District No. 1
PO Box 118
Brownwood, Texas 76804
(325) 643-2609


Lake Somerville --- firearms prohibited (Even in TPWD's PDF map)
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat/fi ... omerville/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reservoir Controlling Authority
US Army Corps of Engineers
Box 549
Somerville, Texas 77879
(979) 596-1622
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... omerville/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department manages the Somerville WMA under a license agreement and in cooperation with the US Army Corps of Engineers.
the whole lake is off limits and all the adjacent property/land that is owned by the Corps, including the parking lots and parks.


national parks are not off limits anymore, but certain structures even in State Parks can be, such as INSIDE a school "Premesis" inside the Park I suppose, since school premesises themselves are off limits. (Unsure about the "School" in LBJ's State Park)

I can understand the desire to not make loud sounds in caves ... but I was unaware that some would or could restrict carry in there.

Since the National Parks and wildlife management areas etc only started allowing licensees to carry since February 22, 2010, most of their websites aren't updated yet. If you E-mail them, you'll probably get the E-Mail form letter saying you can, but to be sure to follow all applicable Texas laws regarding your CHL

If you E-mail the US Army Corps of Engineers, they'll tell you all the property is theirs and you can't carry a firearm nor Ammo even in their parking lot.... but they can't give you specific boundaries of their property .... they just "know" it is theirs.

So, if TPWD says USACE is the "controlling Authority"
or
IF USACE lists it as "their property http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/visito ... m?state=TX" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
you may not carry there.

As far as I know, all other (NOT-USACE) State and National Parks (which are not on USACE land) are ok, though their website may be out of date.

Guadalupe Mountains National Park
http://www.nps.gov/gumo/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Firearms

As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.
It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park. As a starting point, please visit our state’s website:
Texas Constitution and Statutes
(Select Penal Code, Chapter 46. Weapons)
Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park; those places are marked with signs at all public entrances.


Carlsbad Caverns National Park Perhaps New Mexico law may apply instead of Texas ... you'd need to follow all New Mexico concealed or open carry laws.

[New Mexico Department of Public Safety] http://dps.nm.org/lawEnforcement/ccw/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nps.gov/cave/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Firearms
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in Carlsbad Caverns National Park.

It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park. As a starting point, please visit our state’s website. [New Mexico Department of Public Safety]

Federal law continues to prohibit firearms in certain facilities, such as park visitor centers. These facilities are posted with appropriate notices at public entrances. At Carlsbad Caverns, firearms are not allowed in the Visitor Center, including the restaurant, gift shop, and kennel, the park’s maintenance yard, park office buildings, or inside caves where guided tours occur, including Carlsbad Cavern, Slaughter Canyon Cave, and Spider Cave. The new federal law has no effect on existing laws and regulations regarding the use of firearms in national parks or hunting. Hunting, target shooting, and any other use of firearms are not allowed in Carlsbad Caverns National Park

(Strange, New Mexico prohibits carry in liquer stores.... totally different laws to watch out for .... though I don't drink)

[pbwalker]

Check the "Controlling Authority" at TPWD ...

Wow...that was tough to read. I couldn't tell what was and wasn't a link.

That had to have taken forever to write out!

[CC Italian]

Thanks RPG. I checked on these state parks and you are correct. I can NOT carry in Somerville in any part of the park. All other state parks confirmed they where not managed by the COE. Guadalupe Mountains National Park I have the same info as you from their website. I will call Monday and ask for an example of what is off limits. I know it says it will be posted but I would like to know before I get there. I know the visitors center is off limits but what I really want to know is if the showers and restrooms are off limits and considered a "government building".

As for Carlsbad Caverns National Park it is a little confusing. I called the park and they said what is on the website is correct and up to date but that I must follow all New Mexico laws. That’s all they gave me. The website tells you to follow the state laws of New Mexico. Ok that’s fine but it is NOT legal to carry in New Mexico state parks. So does this mean I can carry into a national park in New Mexico even though I can not at a state park? Even if I carry into Carlsbad I can't really go anywhere. I would have to leave my gun in the car. I don't like that! NM has some strange laws. I might just skip Carlsbad altogether.

[CC Italian]

One more question I just thought about. All the parks I called confirmed yes or no with the COE but can river authorities like Lower Colorado and Brown County prohibit me from carrying in a park? I only thought it was the COE I had to worry about but since doing more searches I see that there is some mention of river authorities prohibiting firearms as well. What a mess just to plan a trip.

[Mike1951]

The LCRA issue was resolved some years back.

[RPB]

One more question I just thought about. All the parks I called confirmed yes or no with the COE but can river authorities like Lower Colorado and Brown County prohibit me from carrying in a park? I only thought it was the COE I had to worry about but since doing more searches I see that there is some mention of river authorities prohibiting firearms as well. What a mess just to plan a trip.

LCRA was a special issue due to hydraulic Dams generating electricity etc etc etc .... but since 2007 you CAN carry on LCRA property
SB 535, by Hegar
Categories: Concealed carry. Status: Signed 6/15/07, Effective September 1, 2007.
Relating to the possession or shooting of a handgun on the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority by a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
Prohibits LCRA from adopting rules against concealed carry or self-defense

Texas Parks and Wildlife Code concerns LCRA
TEX PW. CODE ANN. § 62.082
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... htm#62.082" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 62.081. WEAPONS PROHIBITED. Except as provided in Section 62.082 of this code, no person may hunt with, possess, or shoot a firearm, bow, crossbow, slingshot, or any other weapon on or across the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority
Sec. 62.082. TARGET RANGES, MANAGED HUNTS, AND OTHER EXCEPTIONS; RULES.
(d) Section 62.081 does not apply to:
4) a person who:

(A) possesses a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is carrying; or

(B) under circumstances in which the person would be justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9, Penal Code, shoots a handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.

(e) A state agency, including the department, the Department of Public Safety, and the Lower Colorado River Authority, may not adopt a rule that prohibits a person who possesses a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, from entering or crossing the land of the Lower Colorado River Authority while:

(1) possessing a concealed handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry; or

(2) under circumstances in which the person would be justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9, Penal Code, shooting a handgun of the same category as a handgun the person is licensed to carry.




I believe any river authority which is not on COE property is OK, since they are State entities, just like the Capital is OK.... But, I'm no lawyer ... .Brazos River Authority ; Canadian River Municipal Water Authority ; Guadalupe-Blanco River Authority ;Gulf Coast Water Authority ; Lower Colorado River Authority ; Lower Neches Valley Authority ; Sabine River Authority ; San Jacinto River Authority ; and, Trinity River Authority of Texas
The only problematic areas are like the Brazos River Authority rivers etc are OK, but not where they cross USACE lakes/property9 Lakes Stillhouse, Lake Whitney, Lake Georgetown, etc etc etc as you travel down the Brazos River Authority River.... anywhere there is a USACE DAM lake..

[CC Italian]

Yeah. Those posts on the river authorities were several years old. Good to know. You guys are helping me out a lot. I will try and get some more clarification on Carlsbad on Monday and hopefully find out exactly what buildings are restricted in a national park and relay it back to the forum for future reference.
Thanks again

[Mike1951]

Yeah. Those posts on the river authorities were several years old. Good to know. You guys are helping me out a lot. I will try and get some more clarification on Carlsbad on Monday and hopefully find out exactly what buildings are restricted in a national park and relay it back to the forum for future reference.
Thanks again

Actually, ANY building where employees are working is restricted. Some discussions have included standalone restrooms, but unless they were being serviced at the time, I would think they would be ok.

[RPB]

There are places .... Well like so many feet from a dam/electrical generating plant, where people are not allowed armed or not since 9/11 due to homeland security ..... sure messed up great winter fishing spots people fished for many many years though.

Carlsbad is a big ditch in New Mexico ... I know a construction crew in Texas than could fix that crack in a week.
I couldn't tell you what the NM laws are ... never looked at them closely, but you would need to know them to carry there.

I haven't been to any of the National Parks, just wildlife refuge areas with no buildings .... I understand many just carry a backpack with food, water and a roll of biodegradeable paper and a little shovel (or pooper scooper bags for carryout ) but some kayak fishermen I know just chum for sharks out in the national wildlife preserve coastal waters

[KD5NRH]

I know the visitors center is off limits but what I really want to know is if the showers and restrooms are off limits and considered a "government building".

IIRC, there was a clarification that it only applies to buildings in which federal employees normally work. Since their job descriptions don't include generating new Federal legislation, what they do in the bathroom isn't considered normal work.

Even if I carry into Carlsbad I can't really go anywhere. I would have to leave my gun in the car. I don't like that! NM has some strange laws.

Correct; while you could, theoretically, disarm, buy your ticket, go back out and rearm, then step through the gate to enter at the natural entrance, but since all tours exit through the visitor center, you'd be stuck. Also, the underground lunchroom probably counts as a Federal facility.

There are externally accessible restrooms at the front of the visitor center, though, if you just want to enjoy the above ground views.

I might just skip Carlsbad altogether.

I wouldn't skip it; IMO, it's the best value for the entrance fee of any National Park. It's also the most camera-friendly show cave (in terms of rules - it's still a huge, relatively dark place, but they will let you bring in a tripod and good flash units) that I've found.

Besides, it's a limestone cave; if anybody starts shooting in there, you'll be too busy clutching your bleeding ears to return fire. On the plus side, so will the shooter. Muzzle flash will also be as blinding as on a moonlit night.

[CC Italian]

Ok, found more info on Carlsbad Caverns. Here is the link to the info needed and a copy of what the rules are. This comes from the parks website.
http://www.nps.gov/cave/parkmgmt/upload ... endium.pdf

§2.4(d)(4) – Carrying or possessing a weapon, trap, or net It is no longer necessary for the Superintendent to issue a permit allowing firearms on the surface of the park. It is still necessary for the Superintendent to issue a permit for any traps or nets to be carried and/or possessed in the park.
• Guided tour caves within the boundaries of Carlsbad Caverns National Park are considered “Federal Facilities”. Despite New Mexico concealed carry law, no weapons, traps or nets will be allowed into the guided tour caves unless authority is granted by the Superintendent.

Basically leave it on the surface. Which means you can take it in the park but if you want to go into the caves you pretty much need to leave it in your car. Funny, I got a better answer from the website then the people on the phone.

Guadalupe Mountains National Park - Called and of course got the official sounding answer. Obey all TX laws and all signs. Signs were stressed. The park employee told me they did not know of any stand alone bathrooms that were marked with signs but I was told to not enter the visitor center or any other building that park employees worked in that had a public bathroom attached or inside of it. She was nice and just said follow state law and pay attention to signs. If it is not marked it should be fine. The lady told me they have been planning and preparing for the new law for months and all signs are posted. Very professional park staff.

I guess that’s it thanks for all the help on this post!

[RPB]

Dunno if you will be renting cabins, using tents or an RV, but If you are going to Inks Lake State Park (near me) you might also look into Colorado Bend State Park, I haven't been there yet, but I lived in Houston for over 50 years before retiring and moving up here and ony went to the Astrodome 4 or 5 times

http://www.google.com/images?q=Colorado ... =en&tab=wi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... rado_bend/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publication ... _007.phtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

P.S. watch out for snakes wherever you go rattlers and moccasins (Pit Vipers) seem particularly active right now ... I carry snakeshot as my first round, too bad CCI doesn't make it in .380 or I'd have to buy the new "Coyote Special" like Gov. Perry has.... may get one anyway, so I'd have two BUGs ... dedicated snake gun and dedicated coyote gun to back up my Glock. I just got me a new pair of 18" Lacrosse Razor snakeproof waterproof side zip boots I'm pretty impressed with so I'm about to "Go where no man has gone before".

[7075-T7]

Interesting info on eisenhower state park.

http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/visito ... tartRow=51" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Per their website the lake is under control, but the state park is not. So one could believe that the state park is ok for carry where the lake is not?

[RPB]

Interesting info on eisenhower state park.

http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/visito ... tartRow=51" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Per their website the lake is under control, but the state park is not. So one could believe that the state park is ok for carry where the lake is not?

Not if the State Park's land is "leased from/owned by" USACE
Eisenhower State Park, with 423.1 acres, is located in Grayson County, northwest of Denison on the shores of Lake Texoma. It was acquired in 1954 by a Department of Army lease

This is a smilar situation as Whitney State Park and Lake Whitney .... First the TPWD told me I could carry on the shore inside the State Park, but don't step in the water to cool my feet or wade fish or get your lure un-hung if you are bank-fishing ... later after TPWD checked with USACE, then TPWD said don't even carry in the State Park since USACE OWNS the land and TPWD LEASES it.

For further info, you can:
1) write E-mail to the Governor, and He will forward it to TPWD (This gets the fastest reply)
2) E-Mail the head of Law Enforcement at TPWD (This gets the fastest reply)
3) E-Mail TPWD (You may get an answer from some clerical person who may not really know)
4) E-Mail the USACE for the district that State Park is in. (You'll get a clerk who won't say much probably)

Post up any replies you get.
This is the exact type situation that the NRA may be looking into ... I hope.