CLEOs that will sign Form 4

[srothstein]

Chase,

I just wanted to point out that there are multiple CLEOs you can use. It would not surprise me at all if the SAPD chief refused to sign since he came from DC and Minneapolis before here. But there is always the Sheriff, and one of the suburbs if you live outside San Antonio itself. I don't think the constables count as CLEO's, but you might check further into that.

But I do think the trust might be the way to go. It allows for more purchases later without needing the signature and also can be worded in such a way to protect the weapons from estate tax in case of your death.

[hirundo82]

I just wanted to point out that there are multiple CLEOs you can use. It would not surprise me at all if the SAPD chief refused to sign since he came from DC and Minneapolis before here. But there is always the Sheriff, and one of the suburbs if you live outside San Antonio itself. I don't think the constables count as CLEO's, but you might check further into that.

I'm pretty sure constables don't qualify, but district attorneys and some judges (those qualified to hear felony cases) do. The ATF apparently has a list of who qualifies in each state, but I can't find it online.

[JP171]

I have just got to ask, since I have noted a lot of interest in various threads on this forum regarding Suppressors. Why do you folks want them?

I am just nosey. I don't feel any particular urge for one, but was curious as to why others do. I am NOT looking for justification, so don't get me wrong.

I can answer why I would personally would LOVE to have one. My wife, who has only shot a few times, doesn't mind the recoil of a .22 pistol. But even a .22 pistol makes a very loud, very "aggressive" sounding CRACK when it fires. She's stated to me before that the noise at the range bothers her more than actually shooting the gun. If I had a suppressed .22, it would be the ideal weapon in my mind to introduce people to shooting handguns with. Take away the loud noises, and it becomes a lot easier to handle as a newbie.

A suppressor will not remove the "crack" when the weapon fires as the sound isn't created by expanding gas but rather the super sonic shockwave, even in 22 short unless you purchase subsonic rounds. it works on most handguns very well that are larger calibers because they are subsonic, it doesn't work well with rifles no matter how large the suppressor unless its about 4 ft long and even then you still have the crack when the projectile exits the barrel, they are not silencers they are suppressors they reduce sound caused by expanding gas. OP don't think they are the end all, use good hearing protection and save the cost of the tax stamp and suppressor

[74novaman]

I have just got to ask, since I have noted a lot of interest in various threads on this forum regarding Suppressors. Why do you folks want them?

I am just nosey. I don't feel any particular urge for one, but was curious as to why others do. I am NOT looking for justification, so don't get me wrong.

I can answer why I would personally would LOVE to have one. My wife, who has only shot a few times, doesn't mind the recoil of a .22 pistol. But even a .22 pistol makes a very loud, very "aggressive" sounding CRACK when it fires. She's stated to me before that the noise at the range bothers her more than actually shooting the gun. If I had a suppressed .22, it would be the ideal weapon in my mind to introduce people to shooting handguns with. Take away the loud noises, and it becomes a lot easier to handle as a newbie.

A suppressor will not remove the "crack" when the weapon fires as the sound isn't created by expanding gas but rather the super sonic shockwave, even in 22 short unless you purchase subsonic rounds.

Sorry, but no. In the application I was talking about, a .22lr pistol, most .22lr ammo doesn't get enough velocity from the pistol barrel to ever become supersonic. I guess I should have used the word "BOOM" instead of "crack"? Its not the sound of the bullet downrange I'm worried about one way or the other, but the noise right there in the shooters face. Here's an example of the difference between a suppressed and unsuppressed Ruger .22lr pistol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GYk-eDD ... re=related

[rm9792]

I have just got to ask, since I have noted a lot of interest in various threads on this forum regarding Suppressors. Why do you folks want them?

I am just nosey. I don't feel any particular urge for one, but was curious as to why others do. I am NOT looking for justification, so don't get me wrong.

I wanted one just because. I am also interested in making things so I made my own from about $40 in parts, $20 welding and $20 to engrave it (required). I am in about $280 including the ATF fee and it is fun to shoot with. It is nice to shoot 9mm, .22 and .223 with no hearing protection and just a mild pop at .223 levels. 9mm and .22 are about like paintball guns or nail guns. FYI the local Alvin police chief signed off no problem. All subsonic of course.

[srothstein]

I just wanted to point out that there are multiple CLEOs you can use. It would not surprise me at all if the SAPD chief refused to sign since he came from DC and Minneapolis before here. But there is always the Sheriff, and one of the suburbs if you live outside San Antonio itself. I don't think the constables count as CLEO's, but you might check further into that.

I'm pretty sure constables don't qualify, but district attorneys and some judges (those qualified to hear felony cases) do. The ATF apparently has a list of who qualifies in each state, but I can't find it online.

I just went and did a little research. From the ATF website, the Code [abbreviated profanity deleted] Federal Regulations, Title 27, Part 479, section 479.85 says:

479.85 Identification of transferee.

If the transferee is an individual, such person shall securely attach to each copy of the application, Form 4 (Firearms), in the space provided on the form, a photograph of the applicant 2 × 2 inches in size, clearly showing a full front view of the features of the applicant with head bare, with the distance from the top of the head to the point of the chin approximately 11/4inches, and which shall have been taken within 1 year prior to the date of the application. The transferee shall attach two properly completed FBI Forms FD–258 (Fingerprint Card) to the application. The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and should be taken by someone properly equipped to take them. A certificate of the local chief of police, sheriff of the county, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor, or such other person whose certificate may in a particular case be acceptable to the Director, shall be completed on each copy of the Form 4 (Firearms). The certificate shall state that the certifying official is satisfied that the fingerprints and photograph accompanying the application are those of the applicant and that the certifying official has no information indicating that the receipt or possession of the firearm would place the transferee in violation of State or local law or that the transferee will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes.

It would appear that a Constable is not normally acceptable, but I could see ways to challenge it. But you are correct that the local DA can sign. I was surprised to see this.

[CarnivorouZ]

A certificate of the local chief of police, sheriff of the county, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor, or such other person whose certificate may in a particular case be acceptable to the Director,

That's good information, thank you. I am still on this what feels like is a neverending quest to secure a suppressor. Unfortunately I have 0 ties to any DA, lawyers, or other LEO's so that kind of leaves me in a bind as far as getting this Form 4 completed. In the end it's still about who you know rather than what you know I guess. I grow more and more tired of the question "But why would you want to own a suppressor?" Yes, your back-asswards thinking is correct, its the guns that kill people, not the person firing it..... sigh

[hirundo82]

I grow more and more tired of the question "But why would you want to own a suppressor?" Yes, your back-asswards thinking is correct, its the guns that kill people, not the person firing it..... sigh

This seems to be a uniquely American hangup. In most of the rest of the world (including in many countries with distinctly negative overall attitudes about guns) using a suppressor is considered the polite thing to do.

[74novaman]

I grow more and more tired of the question "But why would you want to own a suppressor?" Yes, your back-asswards thinking is correct, its the guns that kill people, not the person firing it..... sigh

This seems to be a uniquely American hangup. In most of the rest of the world (including in many countries with distinctly negative overall attitudes about guns) using a suppressor is considered the polite thing to do.

I personally blame hollyweird.

[hirundo82]

I grow more and more tired of the question "But why would you want to own a suppressor?" Yes, your back-asswards thinking is correct, its the guns that kill people, not the person firing it..... sigh

This seems to be a uniquely American hangup. In most of the rest of the world (including in many countries with distinctly negative overall attitudes about guns) using a suppressor is considered the polite thing to do.

I personally blame hollyweird.

Yeah, I think that's the main contributor, in combination with suppressors being so strictly controlled (and subsequently rare) since the passage of the 1934 National Firearms Act (to which they were originally added on the behest of game wardens, who were concerned about their use for poaching).

[sjfcontrol]

"But why would you want to own a suppressor?"

Ya-know, I can think of a WHOLE BUNCH of answers to that question -- unforunately, not a one of 'em would get me a suppressor!

[CarnivorouZ]

"But why would you want to own a suppressor?"

Ya-know, I can think of a WHOLE BUNCH of answers to that question -- unforunately, not a one of 'em would get me a suppressor!

True and same, but thankfully we have the second amendment and it's my right and I don't have to answer to any authority on why I want it. Of course that doesn't make it any easier to actually get a hold of one unfortunately. On that note, I am still looking for a NFA Trust lawyer in SA,TX that will charge less than my last quoted price of $600 to do this. Or...if anyone has some random hookup with "sheriff of the county, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor" that would be appreciated.

[CarnivorouZ]

LLC or Trust

As quoted from Wayne L. Burnham on my topic I created on subguns.com:

"Now, the easiest course is to get on State of Texas Sec of State site and form yourself an LLC or trust for a few hundred bucks and you never have to go hat-in-hand to any official at all. I think my LLC turns 10 this year and all my NFA except for a couple of cans is in it. There are enormous advantages to corp ownership frequently discussed here (search in archives not a few months ago). The trust form seems most popular now - the LLC used to be. It used to be the corp xfers were also extremely fast, but everyone says this has changed to the reverse. I have been waiting about 6 weeks to get approval for my LLC to make 2 SBR's & an SBS on Form 1's.

Since there are no CLEO sigs to beg for, no fingerprints or photos and since all persons designated authorized in your corporate form - and inheritance is therefore instant - the corp ownership is the best route in most states - and certainly Texas. Even w/o that, sigs may be available if you go trying."

Anyone here have experience with this? I downloaded the form (http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/forms/205_boc.doc) for creating an LLC and I know from other experiences that it is not a difficult task. But, has anyone here done the legwork of signing the Form 4 with their own LLC being the beneficiary?

[Carry-a-Kimber]

LLC or Trust

As quoted from Wayne L. Burnham on my topic I created on subguns.com:

"Now, the easiest course is to get on State of Texas Sec of State site and form yourself an LLC or trust for a few hundred bucks and you never have to go hat-in-hand to any official at all. I think my LLC turns 10 this year and all my NFA except for a couple of cans is in it. There are enormous advantages to corp ownership frequently discussed here (search in archives not a few months ago). The trust form seems most popular now - the LLC used to be. It used to be the corp xfers were also extremely fast, but everyone says this has changed to the reverse. I have been waiting about 6 weeks to get approval for my LLC to make 2 SBR's & an SBS on Form 1's.

Since there are no CLEO sigs to beg for, no fingerprints or photos and since all persons designated authorized in your corporate form - and inheritance is therefore instant - the corp ownership is the best route in most states - and certainly Texas. Even w/o that, sigs may be available if you go trying."

Anyone here have experience with this? I downloaded the form (http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/forms/205_boc.doc) for creating an LLC and I know from other experiences that it is not a difficult task. But, has anyone here done the legwork of signing the Form 4 with their own LLC being the beneficiary?

1st, IANAL,

Make your own trust with Quicken Willmaker 2009, get it notarized, and set up bank account in the name of the trust.You can even have a lawyer look over it if it makes you feel more comfortable. Quicken costs about $40. Corps and LLCs sometimes have registration fees, startup fees, or other costs associated with them. If you are looking for cheap, Willmaker is as cheap as you are gonna get. That said, you get what you pay for, a good lawyer that is familiar with NFA regs might save you A LOT of money in the long run. I would rather pay the $$ up front than $$$$$$ later. A goofed up trust can cost you $200k and 10 years, it HAS happened. Just because the ATF says you can use your trust today doesn't mean that won't say it is an invalid trust later. BUT... A plus with a trust is you can have multiple people on it that are able the possess the NFA item, if you use a CLEO signoff ONLY the person on the ATF form can be in possession of the NFA item. Just some thoughts.

[apostate]

This seems to be a uniquely American hangup. In most of the rest of the world (including in many countries with distinctly negative overall attitudes about guns) using a suppressor is considered the polite thing to do.

That was my experience in Scandinavia. It's thought of much like a muffler on a motor vehicle.