TexasCHLforum.com

Charles L. Cotton wrote:A retired DPS Lt. said it best. "Respect for law enforcement and community relations are rapidly declining because of what cadets are being taught in academies all over the country. Cadets are being taught that they are the pointy end of the spear. They are taught to be not just COPSs, but judge, jury and executioner. That came from a high ranking officer with over 30 years experience. He too longs for the days of community policing.

Chas.

That DPS Lt. Is spot on. As long as these "paramilitary" antics take place there will be a lot of innocence people and police alike killed for no good reason.

carlson1 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:A retired DPS Lt. said it best. "Respect for law enforcement and community relations are rapidly declining because of what cadets are being taught in academies all over the country. Cadets are being taught that they are the pointy end of the spear. They are taught to be not just COPSs, but judge, jury and executioner. That came from a high ranking officer with over 30 years experience. He too longs for the days of community policing.

Chas.

That DPS Lt. Is spot on. As long as these "paramilitary" antics take place there will be a lot of innocence people and police alike killed for no good reason.

I've been singing that song for a long time. Community policing breeds respect for the law. When police respond tactically to everything, it erodes the relationship between police and the community. When they use SWAT rolling up in MRAPs to serve simple warrants, it convinces communities that the police are invaders.

I WANT there to be respect for the law. I WANT police authority to be respected. I absolutely believe that good policing makes the difference between livable and unlivable communities. Good policing is necessary to an orderly society.

When that Chicago officer shot that boy twice, when he could have just as easily tased him, and then shot him 14 more times while he was down, that was just plain indefensible. If he had tased the boy, he might still be alive today. As bad as the death of that young man was (who was after all no angel), what's worse is that the killing pretty much wiped out what little good will still existed between Chicago police and the entire black population of the city.

Bad policing has severe consequences that go beyond the immediate individual events.

Harrumph!

The Annoyed Man wrote:

carlson1 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:A retired DPS Lt. said it best. "Respect for law enforcement and community relations are rapidly declining because of what cadets are being taught in academies all over the country. Cadets are being taught that they are the pointy end of the spear. They are taught to be not just COPSs, but judge, jury and executioner. That came from a high ranking officer with over 30 years experience. He too longs for the days of community policing.

Chas.

That DPS Lt. Is spot on. As long as these "paramilitary" antics take place there will be a lot of innocence people and police alike killed for no good reason.

I've been singing that song for a long time. Community policing breeds respect for the law. When police respond tactically to everything, it erodes the relationship between police and the community. When they use SWAT rolling up in MRAPs to serve simple warrants, it convinces communities that the police are invaders.

I WANT there to be respect for the law. I WANT police authority to be respected. I absolutely believe that good policing makes the difference between livable and unlivable communities. Good policing is necessary to an orderly society.

When that Chicago officer shot that boy twice, when he could have just as easily tased him, and then shot him 14 more times while he was down, that was just plain indefensible. If he had tased the boy, he might still be alive today. As bad as the death of that young man was (who was after all no angel), what's worse is that the killing pretty much wiped out what little good will still existed between Chicago police and the entire black population of the city.

Bad policing has severe consequences that go beyond the immediate individual events.

While I agree I must note that the only reason this stuff happens is because the people with authority over the police want it to happen. Obama's buddy covered up the Chicago killing and even paid off the family.....that required the consent of a lot of people in the chain of command. The real problem is the criminals holding political office, like the mayor of Chicago, the US AG, and the President. The police on the street do what they're ordered to do and what those in higher authority allow them to do.

VMI77 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

carlson1 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:A retired DPS Lt. said it best. "Respect for law enforcement and community relations are rapidly declining because of what cadets are being taught in academies all over the country. Cadets are being taught that they are the pointy end of the spear. They are taught to be not just COPSs, but judge, jury and executioner. That came from a high ranking officer with over 30 years experience. He too longs for the days of community policing.

Chas.

That DPS Lt. Is spot on. As long as these "paramilitary" antics take place there will be a lot of innocence people and police alike killed for no good reason.

I've been singing that song for a long time. Community policing breeds respect for the law. When police respond tactically to everything, it erodes the relationship between police and the community. When they use SWAT rolling up in MRAPs to serve simple warrants, it convinces communities that the police are invaders.

I WANT there to be respect for the law. I WANT police authority to be respected. I absolutely believe that good policing makes the difference between livable and unlivable communities. Good policing is necessary to an orderly society.

When that Chicago officer shot that boy twice, when he could have just as easily tased him, and then shot him 14 more times while he was down, that was just plain indefensible. If he had tased the boy, he might still be alive today. As bad as the death of that young man was (who was after all no angel), what's worse is that the killing pretty much wiped out what little good will still existed between Chicago police and the entire black population of the city.

Bad policing has severe consequences that go beyond the immediate individual events.

While I agree I must note that the only reason this stuff happens is because the people with authority over the police want it to happen. Obama's buddy covered up the Chicago killing and even paid off the family.....that required the consent of a lot of people in the chain of command. The real problem is the criminals holding political office, like the mayor of Chicago, the US AG, and the President. The police on the street do what they're ordered to do and what those in higher authority allow them to do.

No argument out of me..... except to say that I'm sure there are plenty of police who do know right from wrong, and if pushed far enough by their command structure, would resign rather than carry out illegal orders.

These are third world policing tactics.

This thread is very very long and I have been MIA for about a year. However the bit about a baby having its face being blown off as collateral damage as being the cost of fighting evil about makes my eyes fall out of my socket with fury.


We are not in a war zone. This child's parents had not put her next to an AQ camp. Her parents were not AQ operatives. Her parents were not even Participating in any illegal activities. She was in her home in her crib where she belonged. She was grievously assaulted and disfigured for LIFE because someone #1 was lazy #2 lied. How would you like your little girl to go through her life with such injury because of the actions of a careless person? 1 million dollars is a paltry sum. It won't even cover her medical expenses.

Things like this erode the public trust. They put police officers lives in danger because incident by incident both the public and the police cease to look at each other as working towards the same goal and rather as us vs them. That is a police state and that is very very dangerous.

carlson1 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:A retired DPS Lt. said it best. "Respect for law enforcement and community relations are rapidly declining because of what cadets are being taught in academies all over the country. Cadets are being taught that they are the pointy end of the spear. They are taught to be not just COPSs, but judge, jury and executioner. That came from a high ranking officer with over 30 years experience. He too longs for the days of community policing.

Chas.

That DPS Lt. Is spot on. As long as these "paramilitary" antics take place there will be a lot of innocence people and police alike killed for no good reason.

Teaching cops to act like an occupying army is the height of stupidity.

In most of the country, the ratio of LEO's to citizens is somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 per thousand. Thinking about that for a moment should make it obvious that LEO's can only function effectively with the support of the population. If that population turns against them due to misuse of authority, their jobs become much more unpleasant and dangerous, and no military equipment or amount of force that they could bring to bear could overcome that.

There are already police "no go" areas in cities like Newark and Chicago where the general population is actively hostile to the police. In these areas, routine patrols are impossible because they would be attacked. Call response is by necessity accomplished with small unit tactics with quick in and quick out.

Abusive policing tactics can produce this situation wherever they are applied. The first sign is noncooperation with investigations - "I didn't see nuthin'." The next is verbal harassment of officers by bystanders during citizen contacts and arrests. Beyond that point it gets violent, and really ugly for both sides.

Those who teach young officers to act like thugs are actively detrimental to the molding of new officers. They should be called to account by the police chiefs and sheriffs whose cadets are going through their schools. If they fail to do so, they will have to live with the consequences of that "training" which will not be positive for their careers.

nightmare69 wrote:If you ever had to stand fast outside a known drug dealer's home not knowing what you may face going in them your perception on no knocks may changed. It's real easy to give your opinion while in the comfort of your home office.

The reason LE uses no knocks is because they work well with minimal casualties on both sides. The ones wanting to forbid no knocks should educate themselves by strapping on body armor, grabbing a rifle, and get into formation. You give the bad guys time to grab weapons and aim down the fatial funnel there would be more blue blood spilled.

It's tragic that innocent live are lost but the system works and it will continue to be used. Maybe a few changes could be implemented such as gathering better Intel before getting the warrant, but having to stand there and knock waiting for the person to open the door is suicide. Some of the scum we served warrants on would rather slit your throat them look at you.

I understand everyone else's opinion and I used to feel the same until I actually had to go in.

You dont have to always go in. In general no knocks are unjustified when it's safer for all involved to wait for the suspect to leave the protection of his home to make the arrest.

Rather than start a whole new thread I decided to just continue on with this one. Here is an update on one no-knock raid.

Pre-Dawn No-Knock SWAT Raid for Minor Drug Charge Ruled Unconstitutional
2015 militarized raid resulted in "fifth-degree drug possession." That's the lowest drug charge possible.

A Hennepin County (Minn.) drug squad — known as the Emergency Services Unit (ESU) — conducted a pre-dawn no-knock raid on a house in North Minneapolis one morning in November 2015. They were looking for Walter Power, who they suspected of being a marijuana dealer. To search the home they believed Power to be sleeping in, they brought a force of between 28-32 officers, most clad in riot gear and carrying rifles, accompanied by a sniper seated atop a Ballistic Engineered Armored Response (BEAR) vehicle.

Why did law enforcement officials feel they needed to display a show of overwhelming force that would be intense even in a foreign occupied city? Because the primary resident of the house, Michael Delgado, was a registered gun-owner with a license to carry.

Convinced of the potential danger posed to officers when raiding a house with an armed occupant, Hennepin County District Judge Tanya Bransford signed off on the no-knock raid, but later told the Minneapolis Star-Tribune that she did not know a platoon of up to 32 officers would be deployed to search the house, or that they'd throw flash bang grenades through the windows in addition to knocking down doors.

http://reason.com/blog/2016/10/11/minn- ... al#comment


I'm a little curious about the registered gun owner comment. Some clarification would be helpful.

mojo84 wrote:I'm a little curious about the registered gun owner comment. Some clarification would be helpful.

http://smartgunlaws.org/registration-of ... minnesota/

Sounds like the state isn't playing by their own rules.

If you don't use all the cool tactical tools enough the higher ups will take them away. With large city police forces recruiting from the military these days and lots of qualified combat vets, they've already got the military tactical training.

Now we need to up-arm the police air units with air to surface ordnance and 20mm Gatling cannons. You gotta make sure they go home safe when confronting potentially murderous pot heads.

I wouldn't blame the LE community for no-knock warrants. They have to request permission from a judge. It takes a magistrate who has the fancy law degrees to sign off.

nightmare69 wrote:I wouldn't blame the LE community for no-knock warrants. They have to request permission from a judge. It takes a magistrate who has the fancy law degrees to sign off.

Did you read my last post in this thread?

mojo84 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:I wouldn't blame the LE community for no-knock warrants. They have to request permission from a judge. It takes a magistrate who has the fancy law degrees to sign off.

Did you read my last post in this thread?

Yes I did. I think it was excessive to use all that personal and equipment but I don't know the details and refuse to tell that dept they were wrong without having ALL the details. Too many times the public likes to arm chair quarterback everything that has to do with policing with only a biased news story. I don't believe the dept used all that equipment "just because" they had to believe the person of interest warranted the tactics.

We also don't need judges to become swat commanders and start dictating tactics and personal needed to execute a warrant.