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So let me see if I understand this correctly. I will use the following scenario, as it just happened to me yesterday:

My dad and I are going to a nearby liquor store to pick up brandy for some eggnog. We head to HEB first, buy some groceries, then head over to the liquor store. I am concealing until I reach the liquor store, where I see a 51% sign posted just inside the door, near the floor, on the front of the cashier's counter. I took off my firearm and left it in the truck (hidden, of course), and continue into the store, buy our brandy, and head home. There are no tables anywhere in the store, and in fact, there is a sign posted RIGHT NEXT TO the 51% sign that reads something like:
IT IS A CRIME (MISDEMEANOR)
TO CONSUME BEER OR LIQUOR
ON THESE PREMISES

What's the deal with this?

FightinAggieCHL wrote:So let me see if I understand this correctly. I will use the following scenario, as it just happened to me yesterday:

My dad and I are going to a nearby liquor store to pick up brandy for some eggnog. We head to HEB first, buy some groceries, then head over to the liquor store. I am concealing until I reach the liquor store, where I see a 51% sign posted just inside the door, near the floor, on the front of the cashier's counter. I took off my firearm and left it in the truck (hidden, of course), and continue into the store, buy our brandy, and head home. There are no tables anywhere in the store, and in fact, there is a sign posted RIGHT NEXT TO the 51% sign that reads something like:
IT IS A CRIME (MISDEMEANOR)
TO CONSUME BEER OR LIQUOR
ON THESE PREMISES

What's the deal with this?

Then the sign is illegal and unenforceable.

One of the signs is wrong. Check the license to be sure which one. Either way, call TABC and let the agent in the local office know which location so they can get the correct signs posted.

FightinAggieCHL wrote:So let me see if I understand this correctly. I will use the following scenario, as it just happened to me yesterday:

My dad and I are going to a nearby liquor store to pick up brandy for some eggnog. We head to HEB first, buy some groceries, then head over to the liquor store. I am concealing until I reach the liquor store, where I see a 51% sign posted just inside the door, near the floor, on the front of the cashier's counter. I took off my firearm and left it in the truck (hidden, of course), and continue into the store, buy our brandy, and head home. There are no tables anywhere in the store, and in fact, there is a sign posted RIGHT NEXT TO the 51% sign that reads something like:
IT IS A CRIME (MISDEMEANOR)
TO CONSUME BEER OR LIQUOR
ON THESE PREMISES

What's the deal with this?

You can carry in there. It is obvious that there isn't any on premise consumption. The 51% sign is meaningless.

FightinAggieCHL wrote:So let me see if I understand this correctly. I will use the following scenario, as it just happened to me yesterday:

My dad and I are going to a nearby liquor store to pick up brandy for some eggnog. We head to HEB first, buy some groceries, then head over to the liquor store. I am concealing until I reach the liquor store, where I see a 51% sign posted just inside the door, near the floor, on the front of the cashier's counter. I took off my firearm and left it in the truck (hidden, of course), and continue into the store, buy our brandy, and head home. There are no tables anywhere in the store, and in fact, there is a sign posted RIGHT NEXT TO the 51% sign that reads something like:
IT IS A CRIME (MISDEMEANOR)
TO CONSUME BEER OR LIQUOR
ON THESE PREMISES

What's the deal with this?

Ditto with the store in my first post. Went by it on my way into the grocery store next door and saw the same "no drinking" signs.
I may go by the store again today and mention this to the owner. I'll post back with any comments they provide.

Dragonfighter wrote: That said it would probably be considered "reckless" to carry into a place called "Blue Moon Lounge" or something akin to it, whether it was posted or not.

The only "Blue Moon Lounge" I ever heard of was in the movie "Police Acadamy". And I would never go there whether I was carrying or not.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:The only "Blue Moon Lounge" I ever heard of was in the movie "Police Acadamy".

There's one less than a mile from my house, and I have never been inclined to go there.

Google has thousands of hits for real places called "Blue Moon Lounge."

- Jim

frankie_the_yankee wrote:The only "Blue Moon Lounge" I ever heard of was in the movie "Police Acadamy". And I would never go there whether I was carrying or not.

There used to be one in Tyngsboro, Massachusetts. It was a "Dollar Bar".

txinvestigator wrote:There is no defense if you carry into a 51% place that is not posted. There is no offense to carry into a place that posts a 51% sign if it is not a 51% place.

Wow. This seems like a bad law. How is one supposed to know it's a 51% establishment if they fail to post the sign? On the other hand, I would not carry into a place that had a 51% sign unless I was really sure it was not a 51% establishment.

Happy Holidays.

Tom

tbranch wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:There is no defense if you carry into a 51% place that is not posted. There is no offense to carry into a place that posts a 51% sign if it is not a 51% place.

Wow. This seems like a bad law. How is one supposed to know it's a 51% establishment if they fail to post the sign? On the other hand, I would not carry into a place that had a 51% sign unless I was really sure it was not a 51% establishment.

Happy Holidays.

Tom

After first opposing CHL, former Harris County District Attorney Johnny Holmes became a convert and an ardent supporter of CHL's. He testified in an interim study that the lack of a 51% sign should be a defense to prosecution, but it never happened. As someone else mentioned, trying to prove the required mental state (intentionally, knowingly or recklessly) may be difficult without a sign, but not impossible.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As someone else mentioned, trying to prove the required mental state (intentionally, knowingly or recklessly) may be difficult without a sign, but not impossible.

Chas,

That seems reasonable, but who really wants the expense of being a test case. Any known case law on the subject?

Tom

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Dragonfighter wrote: That said it would probably be considered "reckless" to carry into a place called "Blue Moon Lounge" or something akin to it, whether it was posted or not.

The only "Blue Moon Lounge" I ever heard of was in the movie "Police Acadamy". And I would never go there whether I was carrying or not.

I was wondering if anyone would catch that.

<disclaimer>
What follows is what I do of my own volition and should in no way be misconstrued as advice or an opinion of how others should act.
</disclaimer>

I sometimes, not often, go to restaurant where a bar is present and very active, sometimes one has to wonder about the ratio of income. McGuires in Pensacola,FL is one such place (though FL does not have the "51" rule) and a good illustration if one has been there. The closest I have been around here is a Bennagins. I will not hesitate, if it is not strictly a bar, to enter a place that is not posted "51".

I am not a TABC agent and will not waste my time asking to see their license nor will I audit their books to check their receipt ratios. If it is not posted, I am carrying.

Dragonfighter wrote: I am not a TABC agent and will not waste my time asking to see their license nor will I audit their books to check their receipt ratios. If it is not posted, I am carrying.

That's basically my take on it.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Dragonfighter wrote: I am not a TABC agent and will not waste my time asking to see their license nor will I audit their books to check their receipt ratios. If it is not posted, I am carrying.

That's basically my take on it.

Unfortunately, this is one option that is not open to me. But I do understand your sentiments.

I think (and it is just that, a personal opinion) that the average police officer is going to go with what signs are posted. If the place is posted, and you are caught carrying in it, you will probably be arrested. If the posting was wrong, you have a great defense but it is still going to cost you. And, if the place is not posted, i bet the average officer will not arrest you even if it was a straight old beer joint bar that had 100% of its money come from on-premises sales.

As I understand it in Florida you can carry in a restraunt, but not in the bar section i.e. Red Lobster you can carry on the food side but not in the bar. In Texas you can carry in either section. (Florida you cannot carry in a bar.)

Mike Lochabay