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I have always called it my combat stance....

My instructor called it the AWKWARD STANCE. I never really liked him.

Ray

I didn't know what it was called, just new it was comfortable and worked OK. Now that we ahve pictures, thanks txinvestigator, I see what I use is more of the combat stance.

Well, I figured this topic would generate some response.

I guess I'll "chip in" too, but not before making the disclaimer that I am by no means an expert on the subject. I will simply share my experiences and observations.

Just so we're all on the same page:

Weaver= Body "bladed" toward target with strong side shoulder and leg slightly behind weak side, and BOTH arms bent at the elbow.

Modified Weaver/Chapman= As above, (except the strong side arm is extended as far as possible).

Isosceles: Body "squared" to target, both arms fully extended and elbows locked, feet about shoulder width apart and directly under the hip, head and chest slightly forward of hip.

Modified Isosceles: As above (except weak side leg is moved slightly ahead of strong side leg...but with no "blading" of the body, and some allow for slight bending of the elbows).

Note: (Isosceles has taken on so many variants over the years that I can not cover them all, many do not adhere to the principles originally intended). I will let the "semanticist's" argue the finer points however.

Biomechanics of each stance (why they work):

Isosceles: Utilizes a skeleto-muscular support base more than isometric tension.

Weaver: Involves an isometric (push-pull) technique to achieve a stable platform.

Some things I like about Isosceles:

It is a simple gross motor skill, push both hands straight out in front of you, move your head and shoulders slightly in front of your hip...and you are there!

Eye dominance is pretty much irrelevant, the weapon is centered in relation to the torso, so... a slight shift of the head is all that is needed to attain a sight picture if you're "cross dominant".

If you're LEO, it maximizes the effectiveness of your body armor by not exposing the opening under the armpit.

For many people, it gives less shake or "gun tremor", because it does not rely upon muscle tone as much as Weaver does. It is a skeleto-muscular platform that is employed. Not everyone has strong muscles (especially women), but...everyone has bones!

It doesn't depend on foot position, so it takes advantage of our natural (initial) response to "square up" to a threat.

It is clearly faster... when responding to a gun side flank (strong side).

Now, for some things I don't like about Isosceles:

Slower when responding to your weak side flank (weak side), you'll find that as you "turret", you will begin to stall at about your 9 O'Clock (for a right handed person).

Slower for cross body draws, and most strong side rigs without a "break front" design. It loses out to the shorter "arc of the draw" created by the Weaver stance that does not extend the weapon as far. (not saying it is slow, just not as fast)

Shooters with Arthritis, Bursitis, elbow or shoulder injuries may not be able to use this technique at all, or it may be painful to do so (Isosceles depends on forward weight to combat recoil).

Heavy or restrictive clothing may not allow full extension of the arms. What was "working great" in a Tee-Shirt, might not pan out in your winter coat.

IMO, it is not the best technique for shooting on the move. Yes, I know all of the famous "gamesmen" can do it with light loads, and many hours of practicing a smooth heel to toe advance. But for the average person, it extends the hands/arms/gun the maximum distance from the body. This usually means less control in terms of "bounce" when moving much faster than a slow walk.

O.K., if you're still with me....I am going to stop for tonight. Maybe we'll look at Weaver (and what I do and don't like about it tomorrow). But for now, let me have your own opinions/rebuttals.

Be kind!

Flint.

shootingstar, Thank you for the comment. Yes I do come from survival perspective. The pictures are really great. One day maybe I can learn that computer stuff. As far as the stance being faster. Be advised I get all the initials mixed up sometimes & sure don't know the rules of each that are different from the other. What different equip is legal in which initals, but Speed from what I have seen is not so much from the stance as it is from the rigs used to draw from. Against you guys & a time clock I don't stand a chance. There is no one that I know of faster & more accurate than R. Latham. He uses the Iso. I have prepared several ladies for the CHL class & two of them did much better in I. & one of them could not keep both eyes open. Before qualifying the instructor was showing the class the "best way" Mod W. & she said, That is what you were saying. Yes. Her: Do I have too? It doesn't feel right. I HAVE TO CLOSE MY EYE!!! Do what is comfortable. You are doing great. She shot 235 & has some REAL strength issues w/ hands. Which is the fastest? Bottom line is what feels good (within reason) will be faster & more accurate. What you train with will feel good or you will change. I do enjoy watching yall shoot. Who is the fastest is measureable w/ a stopwatch. Which stance is the fastest is going to be circle that will roll for a while. This is good for all of us. I just wish flintknapper would get home from work like he said. Good shooting friend, you are a star.

No "All of the above plus option?" I use whatever stance gets the job done. If strictly target shooting the Isosceles stance is my most common but in an IDPA match - - - whatever it takes to make the shot. In a gunfight I doubt I would be thinking of what stance I was using.

MoJo wrote:No "All of the above plus option?" I use whatever stance gets the job done. If strictly target shooting the Isosceles stance is my most common but in an IDPA match - - - whatever it takes to make the shot. In a gunfight I doubt I would be thinking of what stance I was using.

No pun intended, but...this is the same position I take.

More on this later.

flint...you must have punched submit before I did because you were not in print when I started. Now I know one more thing I did not. My upper body authritis is what makes ISOS so tough for me. The same thing that maxamizes LEO's body armor also maxamizes my COM. As stiff & slow as I have become in the last 2 yr is why I do a lot of practice going to one knee. My right one is not good but OK. Left has to stay at 90% or less. We will look for Weaver tomorrow. Can't weight to get up in the morn.

And what position do you shoot from a vehicle ?
Moving ?
Parked ?
Something to think about because it poses another set of problems.

Bubba wrote:And what position do you shoot from a vehicle ?
Moving ?
Parked ?
Something to think about because it poses another set of problems.

It seems like shooting to the rear from the passenger side is the most awkward. The driver's side is much more natural.

MoJo wrote: In a gunfight I doubt I would be thinking of what stance I was using.

Thats a fact! You will likely go into whatever one you train the most.

Paladin wrote:

Bubba wrote:And what position do you shoot from a vehicle ?
Moving ?
Parked ?
Something to think about because it poses another set of problems.

It seems like shooting to the rear from the passenger side is the most awkward. The driver's side is much more natural.

Shooting from the right rear does not bother me much, but the draw and presentation is awkward. Especially trying to NOT sweep the person in the front seat.

Bubba wrote:And what position do you shoot from a vehicle ?
Moving ?
Parked ?
Something to think about because it poses another set of problems.

I prefer to shoot from the .50 caliber turret topside...

We didn't have those in the Navy, but it sure did look like a good spot to do so from...

Seriously guys I thank you Bubba for this post. I have over time tried to practice some form of any possible trouble that we might face. I have never thought of needing to shoot sitting down. I have practiced surprised while sitting in the house & draw & get up, move, head for the front or back. Now I need to practice draw & fire w/ a sterring wheel in the way. One more thing I have learned since being here. Thanks Guys.

longtooth wrote:. Now I need to practice draw & fire w/ a steering wheel in the way. One more thing I have learned since being here. Thanks Guys.

Seated position in a vehicle presents its own set of problems. If you need to shoot from the drivers position at angles ranging from your 10 O'Clock back to your 7 O'Clock then this is what I suggest: Assuming you are right handed (as you are), and you wear your weapon strong side (as you do), then here is one procedure to practice.

1. First, (time permitting)..you need to "clear the seatbelt". Leaving the seatbelt in place greatly hinders your ability to draw your weapon, and severely restricts body movement. This is how I do it: Use your left hand with the palm flat against your chest and slide it under (not over) the shoulder portion of the seatbelt. At the same time, use your right hand to release the belt (via button or whatever). This leaves your right hand very close to your weapon, and allows you to "sweep" the seatbelt out of your way with your left.

2. Now we're ready for our draw. If you wear your weapon at 3 O'Clock or beyond, you will find that your elbow is going to hit the "seat back" and stall your draw.. if you don't lean forward slightly. Keep your weak hand out in front of your chest for now.. (to guard against attack through the window). Grasp your weapon with your right hand and remove from holster. IMPORTANT: This is where most people "Cover/Sweep" themselves IF they don't do the following: See presentation.

3. Presentation, (in this instance)... is everything. Obviously, if you bring the weapon across your lap (muzzle down), you put yourself in grave danger. Likewise, if you attempt to keep the muzzle pointing straight ahead (or even up), and cross your lap, you risk hitting the steering wheel and could disrupt your grip.. or discharge the weapon.

4. The solution: Is to bring the weapon (in the strong hand only) over the top of the steering wheel (in an arc) where it meets your support hand. One other thing I want you to do, as you bring the gun over the steering wheel, cross your right foot over your left. This will allow you to pivot more on your rear end and be able to present the weapon toward your 7 O'Clock position without having to re-seat yourself (saves time).

This is best practiced in the actual vehicle you drive (gun unloaded of course), but it can also be "simulated" in any straight backed kitchen chair. You won't have the seat belt, but the "movement" can be practiced nonetheless.

I know it sounds like a lot of things to do at once. But give it a try, and I think you'll find it very "doable".

P.S. its important to get that seat belt off, if at all possible. And this position will definitely NOT be Isoseles.

Hope this helps.

Flint.

longtooth wrote: The same thing that maximizes LEO's body armor also maximizes my COM. .

Exactly, and a lot of people have never thought of this. ISO, presents a larger target to your foe than does the bladed stance of Weaver.

Conversely, "Weaver" increases the chance that you will be shot "LHL" (lung, heart, lung), not usually survivable. So.....its kind of give and take.

Anyway, I'll never make a blanket statement that one is absolutely the best.

I just know which is "best for me", most of the time.