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I think the best thing about opencarry.org is it makes parking lot reform etc. sound like reasonable compromises.

I cannot believe you guys. Those who say it probably won't because it's such a flying leap all at once, probably have good standing to say so, and I applaud your honesty even as I tell you to have a little optimism. Those who say it won't for any other reason have generally given a reason in the "I don't think it should" category. What unbelievable hypocrisy; many of you fought for concealed carry, but now that you have what you want you won't fight to not have to have government permission to exercise a constitutional right. Parking lot carry, concealed carry on campus, definition of a "school" to exclude private institutions, all these are pebbles in a mountain of restrictions and infringements heaped on the Second Amendment, and you're picking away at it with a toothpick. You'll get a lot farther by dynamiting the top of the hill off.

Here's one reason that more concealed carry "rights" won't make a bit of difference in the Second Amendment fight overall; no matter where you can carry, as long as that gun is concealed, NOBODY KNOWS YOU HAVE IT. A third of the residents in Texas, the entire lawful gun-owning population of the State, could have CHLs and be carrying right now, and I guarantee you the rest of Texas residents wouldn't know anyone actually carried a gun around on a daily basis. Show your gun, and now people know that some of them go armed, far more than they thought. OC is thus educational. CCers work very hard not to be "outed". OCers out themselves every day. Why? because a CCer is walking a fine line between being armed for their protection, and being "normal". OCers reject the notion of there being a difference; there is no reason carrying a holstered handgun is anything other than "normal" no matter how few do so regularly. There are a lot of subgroups that make up 1% or fewer of the population of the U.S.; is there somehow something abnormal and "fringe" about having a Ph.D? How about living in a state other than the 21 most populous (making your state's population less than 5 million and therefore less than 1% of the U.S. population)? I could go on, but I think you get my point; no matter how much a minority, whether something is "fringe" and therefore not "normal" depends solely on public perception, not how small a minority. And you're never going to change public perception by sticking to "out of sight, out of mind".

I'll go a step further; it is your civil right to carry a defensive weapon of your choice. To require you to pay money to be granted permission to exercise it is equivalent to paying a poll tax or paying the court to have a jury trial (if you're found not guilty the State eats court costs).

Liko81 wrote:I cannot believe you guys. Those who say it probably won't because it's such a flying leap all at once, probably have good standing to say so, and I applaud your honesty even as I tell you to have a little optimism. Those who say it won't for any other reason have generally given a reason in the "I don't think it should" category. What unbelievable hypocrisy; many of you fought for concealed carry, but now that you have what you want you won't fight to not have to have government permission to exercise a constitutional right. Parking lot carry, concealed carry on campus, definition of a "school" to exclude private institutions, all these are pebbles in a mountain of restrictions and infringements heaped on the Second Amendment, and you're picking away at it with a toothpick. You'll get a lot farther by dynamiting the top of the hill off.

Here's one reason that more concealed carry "rights" won't make a bit of difference in the Second Amendment fight overall; no matter where you can carry, as long as that gun is concealed, NOBODY KNOWS YOU HAVE IT. A third of the residents in Texas, the entire lawful gun-owning population of the State, could have CHLs and be carrying right now, and I guarantee you the rest of Texas residents wouldn't know anyone actually carried a gun around on a daily basis. Show your gun, and now people know that some of them go armed, far more than they thought. OC is thus educational. CCers work very hard not to be "outed". OCers out themselves every day. Why? because a CCer is walking a fine line between being armed for their protection, and being "normal". OCers reject the notion of there being a difference; there is no reason carrying a holstered handgun is anything other than "normal" no matter how few do so regularly. There are a lot of subgroups that make up 1% or fewer of the population of the U.S.; is there somehow something abnormal and "fringe" about having a Ph.D? How about living in a state other than the 21 most populous (making your state's population less than 5 million and therefore less than 1% of the U.S. population)? I could go on, but I think you get my point; no matter how much a minority, whether something is "fringe" and therefore not "normal" depends solely on public perception, not how small a minority. And you're never going to change public perception by sticking to "out of sight, out of mind".

I'll go a step further; it is your civil right to carry a defensive weapon of your choice. To require you to pay money to be granted permission to exercise it is equivalent to paying a poll tax or paying the court to have a jury trial (if you're found not guilty the State eats court costs).

Liko81,

I would like to ask how many times have you 'open carried'? I'm not talking about out on the farm, deer lease or on your own property, but in public with a lot of folks around? I can bet to say the majority of those who are fighting so hard for open carry have never done it, and just want it because they think it would be easier. It is a novel concept, and if it was something that had never been outlawed, might work. However, as one who has open carried in public where it is legal and has never been outlawed, the general populace give you funny looks and is VERY leery of you. Trust me on this one. There are many stories of open carry states where the police get called because someone has a gun hanging on their belt and the police have to respond when called. The person carrying the gun is told to leave and they have to do it. You will also find that if it does get legalized, there would be a method for the stores and other locations to prohibit carry. It would probably NOT be a 30.06 sign or variant, but just a gunbuster or 'no guns' sign of any kind. You put that in Texas and in a HEAVILY populated area and, even if legal and publicized, you are going to get a lot of flack and be banned from almost every locale.

I think trying to go from outlawed to legal is probably not going to get passed. It's just a reality, not negativity IMO. I just hope that it doesn't put too much negative emphasis on the other gun related items that, IMO, have a real possibility of getting passed. I would much prefer a re-write of the statute that does away with the word 'intentionally' in the 'fails to conceal' wording.

This is just my view, and does not reflect the views of my employer (who won't let me carry either! )

Keith B wrote:Liko81, I would like to ask how many times have you 'open carried'? I'm not talking about out on the farm, deer lease or on your own property, but in public with a lot of folks around?

On two seperate occasions; I have grandparents in Phoenix, and while shopping last Christmas I decided to do so OCing. I noticed one slightly uncomfortable look from a passerby, and a cashier asked what type of gun it was; he OCed regularly but his employer forbade carry on the job. A third person made the joke, "well sure it's legal, but this ain't Texas!", to which I replied "and thank goodness, because if I were doing this there I'd be arrested" . The other one was a reunion with the other half of my family in Virginia. Didn't get a second glance or mention; the hotel check-in person asked if I would prefer to put it in their vault, to which I politely declined and he smiled and made no further mention. That's not to mention several times I've camped out at a friend's lake lot with my .22 at my side for snakes, and of course it's on my hip in my apartment after a particular episode involving a very drunk neighbor that I've told before.

Keith B wrote:I can bet to say the majority of those who are fighting so hard for open carry have never done it, and just want it because they think it would be easier. It is a novel concept, and if it was something that had never been outlawed, might work. However, as one who has open carried in public where it is legal and has never been outlawed, the general populace give you funny looks and is VERY leery of you. Trust me on this one. There are many stories of open carry states where the police get called because someone has a gun hanging on their belt and the police have to respond when called. The person carrying the gun is told to leave and they have to do it. You will also find that if it does get legalized, there would be a method for the stores and other locations to prohibit carry. It would probably NOT be a 30.06 sign or variant, but just a gunbuster or 'no guns' sign of any kind. You put that in Texas and in a HEAVILY populated area and, even if legal and publicized, you are going to get a lot of flack and be banned from almost every locale.

I think trying to go from outlawed to legal is probably not going to get passed. It's just a reality, not negativity IMO. I just hope that it doesn't put too much negative emphasis on the other gun related items that, IMO, have a real possibility of getting passed. I would much prefer a re-write of the statute that does away with the word 'intentionally' in the 'fails to conceal' wording.

This is just my view, and does not reflect the views of my employer (who won't let me carry either! )

I totally understand the property owner's right to bar guns from their property. If you are told, in so many words, that you are not welcome with a gun on your hip, then failure to heed that is trespassing and I totally defend the property owner's ability to do so, if not his reasons. As far as public sentiment, I would prefer funny looks to "oh my god he's got a GUN! CALL THE POLICE! GUNMAN IN THE MALL!" I have heard as well as you the stories of being detained, questioned, disarmed, handcuffed, given a ride in the squad car, and even hauled before a judge. They are false arrests, and if it gets that far the outcomes have been overwhewlmingly for the "defendant". If they don't know it's illegal, it's an honest mistake; everyone gets a few of those in their lives. If they DO (and many states do have full pre-emption that is totally ignored at a municipal level), then its a scare tactic at best; they're trying to intimidate you into giving it up because it's not worth it. The reasons they do that can be many, ranging from some belief that an armed civilian disturbs the peace to a belief that you're playing Batman. They're wrong; the question is whether you want to go through the inconvenience of this officer's education (and I dont for a second advocate waving a rulebook in a cop's face; I was talking more about being standing by while the officer is educated by his supervisor, lieutenant or the courts). You may not want to; totally understandable. As I said, the ability to look "normal" is no small advantage to concealed carry. However, it avoids the central issue; those who give you funny looks, a wide berth, or a belligerent monologue about "the children" or "keeping people safe" are anti-gun, and hiding your gun from them only reinforces their position that having a gun is somehow something to be ashamed of. Truth be told, people should be thanking you for having a gun ready to use. The chances that you'll ever have to are slim, but if you have a gun, you can deal with any situation up to and including needing to use it, and, if you do end up having to shoot, you'll a lot of other lives in the process.

And about "intentionally" failing to conceal; that one word is the ONLY thing that keeps you from going to jail if you bend over and print, or your shirt blows up in a sudden gust of wind. You have to want to reveal your weapon. To lobby for its removal is to make concealed carry too risky for most; not every circumstance can be expected and avoided. I've met many a pre-K kid who simply could not keep a secret, and most of them would think it "cool", if not hilarious, to lift their dad's T-shirt to show off his CCW. That man has now failed to conceal, regardless of whether he wanted it to happen or not. Likewise, I can imagine being "outed" by someone looking over your shoulder as you fish out your credit card. As soon as it's publicly known that the lump in your waistband is a gun, you have failed to conceal.

Liko81 wrote: And about "intentionally" failing to conceal; that one word is the ONLY thing that keeps you from going to jail if you bend over and print, or your shirt blows up in a sudden gust of wind.

I think my point was not made well; if you remove the 'intentional' and make it a defense to prosecution if they have a CHL and fail to conceal. However, that would pretty well make open carry legal for a CHL then wouldn't it!

Liko81 wrote:

Keith B wrote:Liko81, I would like to ask how many times have you 'open carried'? I'm not talking about out on the farm, deer lease or on your own property, but in public with a lot of folks around?

On two seperate occasions; I have grandparents in Phoenix, and while shopping last Christmas I decided to do so OCing. I noticed one slightly uncomfortable look from a passerby, and a cashier asked what type of gun it was; he OCed regularly but his employer forbade carry on the job. A third person made the joke, "well sure it's legal, but this ain't Texas!", to which I replied "and thank goodness, because if I were doing this there I'd be arrested" . The other one was a reunion with the other half of my family in Virginia. Didn't get a second glance or mention; the hotel check-in person asked if I would prefer to put it in their vault, to which I politely declined and he smiled and made no further mention. That's not to mention several times I've camped out at a friend's lake lot with my .22 at my side for snakes, and of course it's on my hip in my apartment after a particular episode involving a very drunk neighbor that I've told before.

I also meant to post: It looks like you have had a couple of experiences with OC and did experience the looks. I would be willing to bet most pushing for it have never open carried anywhere in public.

IIRC, Arizona or Virginia have never had a law against it, so they may be more used to seeing OC than other states. Take that to a state where it has never been legal (at least in our lifetime) and it will be ten-fold the looks and fear.

I also didn't mention another aspect that will be a problem; profiling. Let's face it, it's human nature. Many folks go by first appearances. If someone like me (middle aged, short hair, clean cut, business casual dress, super good looking ) walks in somewhere with a hog leg on my hip, people will not be as concerned. However, take a guy in faded jeans, with tattoos, long hair, beard, biker t-shirt and vest riding a Harley (just an example), they many times already have a preconceived idea he is a member of a biker gang. Add a gun on his side and you have just lit their panic fuse. Now, he may be the nicest guy in the world, and i may be another Jack the Ripper, but the first look tells them differently. We could both be legally carrying, but who do you think will get called on?

I think if open carry does pass, there will be so many ways to prohibit it (signs or worse, like Missouri, municipal variances over state law banning it) that it will be a nightmare for gun owners.

Again, just my opinion. That and $4.50 will buy you a small cup of coffee at Starbucks!

Black folks didn't get equal rights all at once, either.

Neither did women

Gun owners won't either. It's all about incrementalism. If you push too much, you end up back where you started from or worse.

I'd rather be careful than disarmed completely.
I moved here from California in 2005, so I'm in hog heaven just being able to carry at all.

If we were open carry only, it would be a genuine pain to do so in the winter time when you're wearing a coat.

Folks who are so strongly in favor of open carry should start carrying long guns around so that the public becomes used to seeing armed civilians going about their daily business. AFAIK, it should be legal to walk into WalMart with a shotgun slung over your shoulder, so long as you don't point it in a threatening manner. Why don't y'all go ahead and start conditioning the general public for the rest of us?

Liberty wrote:

ldcarson wrote:I hope it does. I am a CHler and I have a hard time understanding why some of us want this to fail or why "Open Carry" should back off. I think they should be going balls to the wall on this and pushing everything and everyone. Our forefathers gave us the 2A for a reason...

LD,
I see that you are new here and probably wouldn't understand what the current goals are for gun rights and how it relates to the open carry bill.

1st, Many of us concider where we can carry to be more important than how we carry. We want to carry in schools, in our parking lots, and in all the places that LEO's can carry. We meet every 2 years and there is only so much time our legilslators will deal with these bills. Hey, there are times where I would like to be able to open carry, buts lets face it mostly the issue of open carry has little to do with safety, but rather of comfort and vanity of fashion. Allowing campus carry just might save a bunch of lives someday. We've been waiting a long time for this one, We got our Governor in agreement and the time is right. While open carry rates as nice to have, many of us see it as secondary to removing restrictions on where we can carry. Once our goal where we can carry is resolved we can focus on how we can carry , and even on removing licensing requirements.

I'm with Liberty.

I dont really chat much on here, I just really enjoy reading all the posts under certain things. I am a CCer and love every min of it.

I have signed the OC petition that is out there as I hope it passes but I also under stand why it wont pass if it does not. I don't really think it should have right off the bat have no license to OC. If it does pass I think they should take the CC license away.

I think they should allow us (CHL) owners the right to carry on to school grounds. That includes Elementary/middle school/High school and Colleges. Like what my friend says, if the law states CHL is a "0" tolerant alcohol limit. Then why can I not carry in a bar.

Anyways, I am for the OC but will put that to the side and put forth the efforts to get the CC issues better for us to carry in different ways.

I would expect licensed open carry to pass long before unlicensed carry. When the state sees a chance to keep somebody working collecting fees they have more of an interest.

While I am for open carry, I would hate to see the right to conceal carry lost along the way.

Allowing concealed carry in more places is important to me, along with educating the public about CHL holders.

austin-tatious wrote:

Liberty wrote:

ldcarson wrote:I hope it does. I am a CHler and I have a hard time understanding why some of us want this to fail or why "Open Carry" should back off. I think they should be going balls to the wall on this and pushing everything and everyone. Our forefathers gave us the 2A for a reason...

LD,
I see that you are new here and probably wouldn't understand what the current goals are for gun rights and how it relates to the open carry bill.

1st, Many of us concider where we can carry to be more important than how we carry. We want to carry in schools, in our parking lots, and in all the places that LEO's can carry. We meet every 2 years and there is only so much time our legilslators will deal with these bills. Hey, there are times where I would like to be able to open carry, buts lets face it mostly the issue of open carry has little to do with safety, but rather of comfort and vanity of fashion. Allowing campus carry just might save a bunch of lives someday. We've been waiting a long time for this one, We got our Governor in agreement and the time is right. While open carry rates as nice to have, many of us see it as secondary to removing restrictions on where we can carry. Once our goal where we can carry is resolved we can focus on how we can carry , and even on removing licensing requirements.

I'm with Liberty.

yep

I hate to sound like the proverbial Oscar Mayer hotdog, but in the back of my mind is the nagging suspicion that though you may be a law-abiding citizen practicing OC, not everyone else is. I don't care how big or bad you are, some joker/perp/simple-minded individual may simply decide to grab your weapon and proceed from there.

I for one prefer being able to anonymously carry my weapon and not worry about grabby paws in crowds of people. I know that in 24 years of service I saw plenty of people that I would charitably refer to as "simple" that were handed weapons and I did not want to be anywhere near them.

I really don't see the benefit to open-carry. There, I said it.

Purplehood wrote:I hate to sound like the proverbial Oscar Mayer hotdog, but in the back of my mind is the nagging suspicion that though you may be a law-abiding citizen practicing OC, not everyone else is. I don't care how big or bad you are, some joker/perp/simple-minded individual may simply decide to grab your weapon and proceed from there.

I for one prefer being able to anonymously carry my weapon and not worry about grabby paws in crowds of people. I know that in 24 years of service I saw plenty of people that I would charitably refer to as "simple" that were handed weapons and I did not want to be anywhere near them.

I really don't see the benefit to open-carry. There, I said it.

If you spent some time actually researching this opinion you would find examples of this happening extremely rare. It discussed often at opencarry.org.

There are more examples that occur each and every day of folks not having a gun when they need it or being unsuccessful at using their firearm to defend themselves.

Different strokes.

I also agree that there are many things we need more than OC.

Anygunanywhere

anygunanywhere wrote:

Purplehood wrote:I hate to sound like the proverbial Oscar Mayer hotdog, but in the back of my mind is the nagging suspicion that though you may be a law-abiding citizen practicing OC, not everyone else is. I don't care how big or bad you are, some joker/perp/simple-minded individual may simply decide to grab your weapon and proceed from there.

I for one prefer being able to anonymously carry my weapon and not worry about grabby paws in crowds of people. I know that in 24 years of service I saw plenty of people that I would charitably refer to as "simple" that were handed weapons and I did not want to be anywhere near them.

I really don't see the benefit to open-carry. There, I said it.

If you spent some time actually researching this opinion you would find examples of this happening extremely rare. It discussed often at opencarry.org.

There are more examples that occur each and every day of folks not having a gun when they need it or being unsuccessful at using their firearm to defend themselves.

Different strokes.

I also agree that there are many things we need more than OC.

Anygunanywhere

There is nothing to research. I stated what my gut feelings were regarding the issue. I won't apologize for that.