TexasCHLforum.com

bdickens wrote:One word: liability.

By keeping the trigger stock, you avoid the "hair trigger" argument. As in "this psychopathic killer was so bloodthirsy that he modified his gun to have a hair trigger to make it much easier to kill old ladies and children when he went on his murderous rampage."

Maybe in New Jersey ,These arguements just don't happen in Texas. The trials boils down to either the shooting is justified or not. Whether its justified or not. As we observe cases here in Texas The issues of caliber, handloads, gun modifications etc. Just don't come up.

Now if a customized gun goes off accidentally because the trigger is just a bit too touchy and shoots someone that doesn't need to be shot. That will be a legal problem.

Just don't try to say it was an accident and you didn't intend to shoot the guy yet. IIRC, that was the real problem with one of Ayoob's cases; the shooter said that he was just trying to scare off the attacker and hadn't intended to fire at that time. Under the circumstances described in the case, intentionally shooting the BG would have been justified.

srothstein wrote:The reason police use a heavier trigger is to avoid accidental shootings during high stress incidents. . . . police tsrated asking for a gun that fired the same way every time. . . . NYPD asked for a heavier trigger pull . . . There were some requests for even a heavier trigger pull, one more in line with the double action revolver pull. Glock responded with a 12 pound trigger, called the New York 2 trigger . . .

Excellent summary, but IIRC it wasn't the police, but police administrators who wanted heavier trigger pulls.

Excaliber wrote: . . . NYPD, with their heavy triggers and limited availability of training time, has some serious problems with getting their shots to go where they're supposed to. It's hard to say just how much of the problem comes from which cause, but I think it's fair to say that very heavy trigger pulls don't help.

I've read this, too, in more than one place. If heavy triggers weren't a detriment to accuracy, then target shooters and IPSC/IDPA.PPC/USPSA etc. competitors wouldn't be spending money to improve their triggers; heavy triggers impair competitive shooting results, and in this case, it would appear that the symptom - reduced accuracy - translates to the street.

Plato wrote:So all you 1911 guys who have the factory trigger tuned up to your liking are kinda in the same catagory, and I bet as a percentage the folks totin' 1911s are much more likely to modify their trigger than anyone else.

Actually, as the owner of several 1911s of various brands, from an original Ithaca GI model made in 1943, to more recently made Kimber, Springfield Armory, and Taurus models - not to mention a Sig GSR 1911 I used to own, and a Colt Government .380 safe queen I own - 1911 pistols come right out of the box with excellent triggers. There are variations in pull weight between them, but in my experience, all of them have better triggers than most other semi-automatic pistols - including the overpriced H&K USP I own, which has an abysmal trigger - and none of them have ever had a pull weight greater than 4-5 pounds. Most have been lower than that. I have never fired a 1911 pistol that had a trigger job, or needed one.

I suppose that a few 1911 owners go about having their triggers perfected to their personal liking, probably for reasons of competitive shooting, but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of 1911 owners don't do it because they find the trigger to be nearly perfect right out of the box.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Plato wrote:So all you 1911 guys who have the factory trigger tuned up to your liking are kinda in the same catagory, and I bet as a percentage the folks totin' 1911s are much more likely to modify their trigger than anyone else.

Actually, as the owner of several 1911s of various brands, from an original Ithaca GI model made in 1943, to more recently made Kimber, Springfield Armory, and Taurus models - not to mention a Sig GSR 1911 I used to own, and a Colt Government .380 safe queen I own - 1911 pistols come right out of the box with excellent triggers. There are variations in pull weight between them, but in my experience, all of them have better triggers than most other semi-automatic pistols - including the overpriced H&K USP I own, which has an abysmal trigger - and none of them have ever had a pull weight greater than 4-5 pounds. Most have been lower than that. I have never fired a 1911 pistol that had a trigger job, or needed one.

I suppose that a few 1911 owners go about having their triggers perfected to their personal liking, probably for reasons of competitive shooting, but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of 1911 owners don't do it because they find the trigger to be nearly perfect right out of the box.

This is my experience as well with quality 1911 pistols of modern manufacture in the CNC machining world. The out of the box triggers are fine, and they get even better with use.

I have owned 1911's made before the days of computer number controlled machining. One was a World War II GI model, and a couple of others from Colt. It took expensive gunsmithing work to make them as good as today's out of the box triggers, but looking back I could have done just fine with the triggers as they were. I just wanted them perfectly smooth with no creep, little overtravel, and a crisp letoff, not lighter in pull weight.

The Annoyed Man wrote:I have never fired a 1911 pistol that had a trigger job, or needed one.

If you ever fire one that has had a really good trigger job you may decide that your 1911 "needs" one.

I seldom comment on these kinds of threads as I feel they just don't accomplish much but just go around in circles.

I have worked over triggers on my pistols and some 3/5 connectors in some of my Glocks. When deadly force is authorized any means that can be used to bring that force to bear are also authorized. If someone is shooting at you and you are in your car and you run them over to stop them shooting at you that too can be justified. Nobody is going to say that the special air intake and exhaust you put on it made you a killer. If someone is trying to stab you and all you have is a baseball bat that is corked that does not make you a cold blooded killer. I'm sure that Ayoob or whoever can show me cases where some prosecutor somewhere brought up a gun modification. But I don't just want to hear that he brought it up. I want to hear if the judge allowed it to be considered, or if it was even a factor for the jury.

In the end it's just a pistol, and it's just a CHL shooting that for most people here will probably never happen anyhow. My hope is that for the VERY small percentage here or elsewhere that it does happen to they make the best decision on how to pull the trigger. Once that decision is made and you decide to put your finger on the trigger everything else is secondary. If you ever have to really fight for your life or the life of another innocent person I think you will find that you won't really notice how much your trigger weighs or if those night sights are nice and bright. More than likely your going to be in a panicked state and just trying to survive. If you live and the person you are trying to protect lives and it was a justified shoot then everything else will more than likely fall into place. This is just my opinion. You get what you pay for and baby it's free.....

From what I've heard, carrying a modified gun with a light trigger is discouraged largely for liability reasons. If you should end up using that gun, you can bet that the fact that you made the trigger pull lighter/shorter/crisper will be used by the DA to imply that you wanted to be able to shoot as fast and as many times as possible, punching a hole in your justification. Of course it's bogus; should you be charged with street racing if you get in an accident in your riced Eclipse?

kalipsocs wrote:Plaxico Burress....

He was just stupid......untrained. Light trigger had nothing to do with it. Low IQ....maybe.

WildBill wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I have never fired a 1911 pistol that had a trigger job, or needed one.

If you ever fire one that has had a really good trigger job you may decide that your 1911 "needs" one.

You might be right, but it would have to be an amazing difference for me to put the money into it. I've been pretty impressed so far with 1911 triggers out of the box. . . . not so much with other sem-autos.

Excaliber wrote:. I just wanted them perfectly smooth with no creep, little overtravel, and a crisp letoff, not lighter in pull weight.

I understand I'm displaying my ignorance but what does all this mean?

Triggers of single-action firearms ideally fire with a hair's breadth of travel. The usual metaphor is breaking a glass rod. They are not supposed to move before tripping the hammer, the way that double-actions do.

I'm a double-action guy for the most part, so I do not have a proper appreciation of this point.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Triggers of single-action firearms ideally fire with a hair's breadth of travel. The usual metaphor is breaking a glass rod. They are not supposed to move before tripping the hammer, the way that double-actions do.

I'm a double-action guy for the most part, so I do not have a proper appreciation of this point.

- Jim

I can somewhat appreciate it, but don't understand the terms. There are just some things they don't cover in CHL class

Let's take them one at a time:

• Smooth action is something that I associate more with double-actions, because single-actions are supposed to have the "breaking a glass rod" effect.
• Creep is movement of the trigger before it trips the hammer. Single-actions are not supposed to have this at all.
• Overtravel is the distance that the trigger moves after firing. This quantity is supposed to minimized with single-actions. It lets you fire the next shot with minimal delay.
• Letoff: I never understood what this means.

El Gato would be happy to explain and demonstrate all of this.

- Jim

Liberty wrote:

Excaliber wrote:. I just wanted them perfectly smooth with no creep, little overtravel, and a crisp letoff, not lighter in pull weight.

I understand I'm displaying my ignorance but what does all this mean?

Smoothness in my book means no grittiness or increases / decreases in the amount of pressure needed to move the trigger back through its range of movement.

Trigger creep is the perceptable movement of the trigger prior to the release of the firing pin or striker. Also called trigger "slack" or "takeup".

Overtravel is trigger movement beyond the point where the hammer or striker is released. This is wasted movement and not helpful to accuracy.

Crisp letoff is the smooth release of the hammer or striker - sometimes described as akin to "breaking a glass rod."