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Another suggestion is a Stoeger Model 2000 semi auto. I bought one new a few years ago for less than $500 with the cammo finish. I still see the black models for under $500.00. Mine is 12 ga. and love it. Being semi auto, it doesn't kick as bad as a pump. It also uses the same "inertia drive" that Bennelli uses for 1/2 the price.

Just my $0.02 worth. (I'm ready for dove season!)

MoJo, from a post above:
"Firing anything at anyone for just driving through the neighborhood is not a good idea."

Thanks for making my son look like an idiot. In case you didn't follow the story of my son
being approached by a gangster with an AK-47: My son fought a potentially deadly battle on
the lawn, late at night. The bad guy eventually had the AK taken away from him by my son and
made his escape with only the banana clip. My son ended up with 2 black eyes, a broken nose,
multiple stitches from where the bad guy beat him with the removed banana clip, and a nasty,
deep human bite to his right forearm. This is as real as it gets.

My son is trying to strategize what to do if this gang banger and his friends comes back to the
neighborhood for revenge.

My son has a Remington 870 pump with both slugs and shot cartridges available. I thought his
question about less lethal ammo bore a little research. My son's thought process was that if the
gangsters came back he could start with less lethal rounds, then move to more lethal rounds.

He doesn't just shoot at cars that come to his cul de sac. Sheesh!

SIA

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:MoJo, from a post above:
My son is trying to strategize what to do is this gang banger and his friends comes back to the
neighborhood for revenge.

My son has a Remington 870 pump with both slugs and shot cartridges available. I thought his
question about less lethal ammo bore a little research. My son's thought process was that if the
gangsters came back he could start with less lethal rounds, then move to more lethal rounds.

He doesn't just shoot at cars that come to his cul de sac. Sheesh!

SIA

If your son is in a life-or-death self-defense scenario (and it sounds like he is), then don't jack around with salt or rubber or neoprene. Use 00 buckshot (slugs if you're targeting the guy's car and need to penetrate). If you absolutely MUST try and use a "less lethal" round, then use birdshot. The other suggestion I would have is for your friend to try and have someone(s) else with him who can use a gun if he's truly expecting this guy to return with friends. The last thing you really want to be is in a situation where you're out-numbered as well as out-gunned.

Here's an interesting link; scroll down to the shotgun sections. Like any commentary, you can agree or disagree, but it's a valid discussion.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

stsai465 wrote:

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:MoJo, from a post above:
My son is trying to strategize what to do is this gang banger and his friends comes back to the
neighborhood for revenge.

My son has a Remington 870 pump with both slugs and shot cartridges available. I thought his
question about less lethal ammo bore a little research. My son's thought process was that if the
gangsters came back he could start with less lethal rounds, then move to more lethal rounds.

He doesn't just shoot at cars that come to his cul de sac. Sheesh!

SIA

If your son is in a life-or-death self-defense scenario (and it sounds like he is), then don't jack around with salt or rubber or neoprene. Use 00 buckshot (slugs if you're targeting the guy's car and need to penetrate). If you absolutely MUST try and use a "less lethal" round, then use birdshot. The other suggestion I would have is for your friend to try and have someone(s) else with him who can use a gun if he's truly expecting this guy to return with friends. The last thing you really want to be is in a situation where you're out-numbered as well as out-gunned.

Here's an interesting link; scroll down to the shotgun sections. Like any commentary, you can agree or disagree, but it's a valid discussion.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

With all due respect, bird shot is NOT a less than lethal alternative. It is still use of deadly force.

As a non LEO, IMO there is only one reason to discharge a firearm at another individual, and that is to stop a deadly force attack against you or another you are defending.

Keith B wrote:

stsai465 wrote:

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:MoJo, from a post above:
My son is trying to strategize what to do is this gang banger and his friends comes back to the
neighborhood for revenge.

My son has a Remington 870 pump with both slugs and shot cartridges available. I thought his
question about less lethal ammo bore a little research. My son's thought process was that if the
gangsters came back he could start with less lethal rounds, then move to more lethal rounds.

He doesn't just shoot at cars that come to his cul de sac. Sheesh!

SIA

If your son is in a life-or-death self-defense scenario (and it sounds like he is), then don't jack around with salt or rubber or neoprene. Use 00 buckshot (slugs if you're targeting the guy's car and need to penetrate). If you absolutely MUST try and use a "less lethal" round, then use birdshot. The other suggestion I would have is for your friend to try and have someone(s) else with him who can use a gun if he's truly expecting this guy to return with friends. The last thing you really want to be is in a situation where you're out-numbered as well as out-gunned.

Here's an interesting link; scroll down to the shotgun sections. Like any commentary, you can agree or disagree, but it's a valid discussion.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

With all due respect, bird shot is NOT a less than lethal alternative. It is still use of deadly force.

As a non LEO, IMO there is only one reason to discharge a firearm at another individual, and that is to stop a deadly force attack against you or another you are defending.

True it's not; I didn't intended it to come out that way. And yes, legally it's still deadly force. Within 20 feet, it's every bit as deadly as buck. What I meant though is most wound profiles for birdshot show that distances further than 20 feet, birdshot won't penetrate as far.

In terms of a reason to discharge, the original post about the son sounds like he is defending himself from a deadly force attack. My main point was that if the son is in a situation that justifies discharging a shotgun (defending himself from a lethal attack), then don't trust your life on something like rock salt or rubber pellets.

I really don't know what any of this has to do with the OP's desire for a shotgun for bird hunting.

Longhornmike - what did you end up with?

jay
nothing yet , but i appreciate all of the tips.

I suggest going with the 20 ga. After you master it, you will be amazed at how much your accuracy has improved.

An 870 is the perfect gun for your situation Longhorn. I have the entire family minus a 28 gauge 870. (kinda hard to find a reasonably priced 28) The 12 kicks hard. True, there is more shot in each shell, but if I miss the first shot, to work the action then reacquire takes a considerable amount of skill, practice, and effort. A 20 is a dream to shoot. The recoil is much less compared to a 12G, and reacquisition of target is much quicker and easier. They are also very affordable. (another reason why I have five)

As far as home defense is concerned, it's difficult to defeat a 12 gauge loaded with Buckshot. Personally, anybody I see carrying a shotgun, I wouldn't be wondering about the Birdshot/Buckshot debate.

I was taught in my CHL class, if you have to draw, shoot to kill. The threshold to draw should be pretty high so if you have to bring out a shotgun, that is serious and a rock salt blast will not drop an intruder. I have an 870 in the corner next to my bed that has Birdshot and Buckshot. Birdshot won't over penetrate sheet rock but is quite lethal at close range. Buckshot doesn't need any explanation.

I would think an 870 20 gauge combo would be a great place to start. Gives you a 26" vented barrell for the times you go on a dove hunt. For the other days of the year install the 20" barrell loaded with some 00 buckshot & you have a great home defense gun.

Since no one has mentioned it, May I suggest an O/U? And honestly, birdshot loads in 12ga really won't kick enough for you to even notice when hunting, unless you're hot-dogging it with nitro loads or something. Also, you'll thank yourself for the price differential and ammo selection if you go with 12ga

I bought a shotgun for bird hunting a couple of weeks ago, and have been very happy with it. It is a Stoeger Condor O/U, cost me $350, and is a GREAT bird hunting gun, and plenty accurate. They're available all over, I got mine at Bass Pro in San Antonio. There's also something elegant about an O/U while remaining utilitarian to the purpose of bird hunting.

I wrote a blog post with my initial review of the gun, and will be writing an update in the next few days with my review of its performance now that I've taken it hunting and will be doing some skeet shooting with it this weekend. My impressions now that I've put it to real-world use have been overwhelmingly positive. You can read it here:

http://therealnecessities.blogspot.com/ ... ondor.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Take a look at the Stoeger site and have a gander. If there's ever a good utilitarian-grade bird hunting gun, it's the Condor.

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firear ... condor.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm 58 and went on my first dove hunt in about 20 years, a couple of weeks ago. I had an over/under 12 gauge 28" modified over full choke, and it wore me out trying to get my limit. I managed to get my limit every day, but I shot a case of shells doing it, and my shoulder was black and blue. Thankfully, I ran out of shells on the last day, and my brother in law loaned me his 20 gauge Benelli, 24" barrel, with Improved Cylinder choke installed. Once I learned to let them get in to 30 yards, I was deadly. I guess shooting a case of shells through my O/U sharpened up my shooting eye. I actually got the first two doubles I have ever shot while dove hunting, and I had my limit within the first hour.

So, obviously, I recommend the Benelli, but if $1100 is too rich for your blood, as it is mine, I'm betting that any short-barreled 20 gauge semi-auto, with I.C. choke would get the job done for you.

some guns fit... some guns don't! Shotguns, especially bird guns, are notorious for having a finicky "fit". If it's not the comb, it's the cant...or the offset. Try enough guns over the years and you just may find that the old single/breakdown J.C. Higgins from 1960 will drop more birds for you than a Browning Citori. Shotguns are like that


surv

First of all I want to say ( and this is not brag, just want you to understand where my opinion is coming from) that I shot competitive Skeet for 5 years, sporting clays competitively for 2 years and hunted doves both in Texas and Mexico for over 20years. The type of action you buy is a personal thing. I prefer O/Us but that is me. If you feel more comfortable with a pump, BUY IT. What is infinitely more important is Gauge and Barrel Length. My recommendation is a 12 ga mostly because it can do more things ( doves, quail, ducks geese) and do them BETTER than a smaller gauge. Light field loads for a 12 ga are not that hard to find and generally not that expensive. Here my personal recommendation is you buy SS ammo with extra hard shot. This is easily done by buying traps loads from one of the major ammo producers. A 1oz load of #8 shot will bring down any dove and the hard shot will give you a better pattern to do it with. The other thing is buy a 28" barrel. Most shots with a shotgun are missed because the shooter stopped their swing. The longer barrel gives a little extra weight an the end of the barrel and helps you follow through on your target, and also gives you a little longer sighting plane for those longer shots. Hope this helps with your decision and doesn't confuse you or make your decision any harder. Whatever you buy keep wood on wood.