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Howdy again,

Wow, great advice from everyone. I've posted this on a few different forums that I usually only lurk on, and the overwhelming response has been the same: get a .22. Enough people have strongly encouraged this I think I really need to look into it and justify it by calling it a training aid (that I just happen to plink with all the time). A couple of people have mentioned that some .22s have a poor trigger-anyone have an out of the box recommendation here? Apostate I noticed you mentioned a Ruger .22, how do you like it? Being the typical broke college student, I'm trying to avoid buying more than one because the first one isn't very effective. I would like to stick with a semi, just so that all the mechanics are the same.

Several people have talked about the NRA instructor's course as well. I do hold one instructor cert (RTBV) and I had to take the BIT then, so I may go take the Basic Pistol instructor course this week from TraCoun. I'm close enough to it to be a one day thing, and I have always wanted to take that course.

My major concern here, and I may not have clarified this enough, has to do with the sight alignment. Even when I had her line the sights up, and stand perfectly still while I pulled a crisp break, the rounds were not going where she said she was aiming. I've never had this problem before, and I'm not really sure how to fix it. All the times I've done this before, having someone else pull the trigger while they held it was a "light bulb" moment, where they realized that if they did A, B, and C, the bullets really did go where they wanted them to go. I'm trying to find some way to duplicate that here.

I did use some snap caps to assess whether she had a flinch when she was shooting. While she didn't have one when she was dry-practicing, the snap caps showed some flinch when she was actually expecting some recoil. I don't think that was the primary problem, but I can see how a .40 might make that worse if all that you did was live practice. I'm going to try and add in a laser as well, so hopefully that will also help. Anyone know the best place to get one at?

After reading all the replies however, I think I'm going to try starting people out with the .22. I would like to do what annoyed man mentioned as well, and not leave them thinking that a .22 is what all handguns feel like. I know that has been my personal rational for always using the .40, well that, and the fact that I'm young enough to have always been shooting Glocks. I've successfully used the Glock for about 8-10 other shooters, so of course I am biased in its favor. A couple of those have been the same scenario as this girl (uber-petite female around 100 pounds), so I know it's at least somewhat possible. Just because it's possible however, doesn't mean it's the best way, so I'm going to give this route a try and report whether I see improvements.

I'm hoping that the problem is something along the lines of being overwhelmed. That is, that the recoil, noise, unfamiliarity etc combine to be disorienting enough that even though she might be intellectually understand the concept of sights, it's not actually happening. Hopefully reducing some of those problems will solve this particular problem.

We have two .22 pistols that we use. One is my Ruger 22/45 Hunter, and it looks just like the picture below:


It is extremely accurate, and it is designed to mimic the ergonomics of a 1911 .45 pistol - hence the model designation of 22/45. It is well made, and like I said, accurate. It is a bit of a bear to take down and reassemble, but it is a great gun. I think I paid about $289 or something like that at the Ft Worth gun show for it.

The second pistol is my son's S&W Model 22A, also purchased at the same gun show for a lower price. It seems to me it was around $220 or so. Here is a picture of it:


It has a 7" barrel and is at least as accurate as the Ruger. There is one ergonomic oddity with it though, and that is that the magazine release button is located right on the front of the grip, so if you're not careful, you can eject the magazine while shooting.

Both pistols have excellent triggers, as you would expect from a pistol designed with accuracy in mind, and are single action only pistols.

I don't have any particular brand loyalty with regard to semi-auto .22s, as long as they function as advertised. The Browning Buckmark is another good one to look at. I'm sure there are others.

I agree with TAM's suggestions for .22LR pistol with good triggers.

I would recommend against the laser. I believe that one should learn proper sight alignment first. I think that a laser would be distracting and counterproductive. A good quality .22LR pistol, such as those suggested above, is about the same price as a laser.

This advice goes for teaching boys/men and well as girls/women. Men tend to want to start off shooting the big guns. Maybe they think .22LRs are for just girls, woman and boys.

The .22LR is also a great confidence builder. Can you imagine how your student would feel if she came home with a target with all of her shots in the black on her first trip to the range? I think that you would feel feel terrific too.

If you look at the NRA course descriptions that are taught by TraCoun, he recommends a .22LR pistol. http://www.texasshooting.com/ArGent/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't what range you use, but ranges such as PSC have .22 only ranges. I believe that these are the best to use for instruction. They are usually less crowded and the student is less likely to be distracted by other shooters shooting rapid fire with loud guns. I know that you and your students wear ear protection, but the shock wave from some of the larger calibers can still be felt. This is especially true if you wear only ear plugs.

When you are trying to teach someone, your instruction should be focused on the needs of the student, not the instructor. Just because you started out with Glocks doesn't mean it's the best way.

One last comment. I know that it's a cliche, but it is much easier to learn good habits that to break bad habits. Take this advice from someone who knows first hand.

WildBill wrote:I would recommend against the laser. I believe that one should learn proper sight alignment first. I think that a laser would be distracting and counterproductive. A good quality .22LR pistol, such as those suggested above, is about the same price as a laser.

WB, just a clarification since I recommended, and have used, a laser for teaching. I certainly do not advocate learning to use a laser rather than conventional sights. What I meant was using a laser (boresighter or fixed) in order to provide instantaneous feedback to the new shooter regarding where he/she thinks the sight picture is aiming, and where, in fact, the point-of-aim really is. After all, you can't fire a shot with the boresighter in place.

I like the boresighter because it's inexpensive, will fit in (almost) any handgun, it's easy to keep in the range bag, and it can be activated by the instructor without significantly disturbing the shooter's hold...particularly on benchrest. Most mounted laser aiming devices require the shooter to activate them.

The idea is to have the shooter follow what he/she has been taught and obtain good sight alignment and good sight picture. Once the shooter believes the aim is dead-on, the instructor can activate the laser boresighter, providing instant feedback about perceived sight picture and reality. If there is a noticeable difference, the instructor might opt to keep the laser on for a few dry-fire rounds to coordinate the manual action of firing with the "new" reality of proper sight picture. After that, the boresighter comes out and live-fire is resumed.

And lasers can be excellent dry-fire practice tools for shooters who have moved beyond the basics and can already exhibit good iron-sight accuracy and consistency. A boresighter isn't a good solution for this, though. But with a Crimson Trace or similar, there's not much better way to make the muzzle angle-of-movement obvious, and to give feedback about trigger control. A little red or green dot on a wall 15 feet away exaggerates--just as happens in real life point-of-aim--any movement of the muzzle.

But you are absolutely correct: any aiming device, laser or optic, should never be a substitute for iron-sight basics and proficiency. Their use in training new shooters should be used very judiciously, IMHO; but I think they can have a place as tools to augment certain aspects of training.

To answer one of croc870's questions, if you want to look into laser boresighters, they can be had almost anywhere, and can be as inexpensive as about $40. Here's an example from Midway USA: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?p ... ber=112880.

As always, I am no expert...just opinionated.

croc870 wrote:The only think I can think to do is find a laser sight so I can determine what she's doing with the sights, or perhaps use a firearm with a less canted grip (XD perhaps?).

Skiprr wrote:But you are absolutely correct: any aiming device, laser or optic, should never be a substitute for iron-sight basics and proficiency. Their use in training new shooters should be used very judiciously, IMHO; but I think they can have a place as tools to augment certain aspects of training.

Skiprr, I was referring to croc870's original post regarding laser sights. I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that he was talking about laser sights, rather than a bore sighter.

Skprr wrote:As always, I am no expert ... just opinionated.

I may have a lot of opinions, but I am not "opinionated".

I have read through this thread and the only thing that I was wondering is, is she closing her eyes when she fires live? All the sugestions are great to help her but if her eyes are closed she can not hit the target.

threeg45 wrote:I have read through this thread and the only thing that I was wondering is, is she closing her eyes when she fires live? All the sugestions are great to help her but if her eyes are closed she can not hit the target.

Good point and it does happen

After reading all the replies however, I think I'm going to try starting people out with the .22. I would like to do what annoyed man mentioned as well, and not leave them thinking that a .22 is what all handguns feel like. I know that has been my personal rational for always using the .40, well that, and the fact that I'm young enough to have always been shooting Glocks.

Let me just put this bug in your ear. When I went looking for a .22, I checked out Ruger, Browning, Walther and Sig. I ended up buying the Sig Mosquito because it felt just like your typical semi-auto. They're all good guns and I have nothing bad to say about any but give the Sig a look and see what you think. Since my primary purpose for buying the gun was to introduce the wife to shooting, I wanted something as close to 'normal' as I could find.

I've been extremely pleased with this choice and she absolutely loves it.