NY Mosque

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Charles L. Cotton
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

The Annoyed Man wrote:Certainly Muslims in America have a constitutional right to build a mosque wherever the zoning ordinances allow it, and whenever they have the money to do so - the same right that Christians have to build churches, and Jews to build temples. That is not the point.

There are other, maybe even better, places to build mosques. They didn't have to build one right there. It could have been built somewhere else. It simply could, any arguments to the contrary notwithstanding. THIS place was chosen quite deliberately. It is very much an "in your face" gesture. They are doing it, knowing that it will inflame the passions of non-muslims, and knowing that it is a bitter pill that will stick in the craws of most non-muslims. There is no way that any sentient being cannot be aware of these things. The people who are doing this... they are aware, and they know that non-muslims are aware, and they are not very nice people to be so cruel. It is akin to an artist putting his signature to his chef-d'oeuvre. It is very much in bad taste.

It's in the same vein as Fred Phelps and his mongrel church showing up at the funerals of American servicemen killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. It may be his constitutional right, but it shows him to be an insensitive scab - a pimple on the derriere of all that is decent. In his eyes, he may think he's doing it for God's glory, but most Christians know that there has been a particularly warm place in Hades set aside for him.

What does building this particular mosque say about the hearts of those individual Muslims who are planning it? It says that those individual muslims are no better than Fred Phelps, and their hearts are infested with the same vile nature as his.
Excellent post.

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Re: NY Mosque

Post by baldeagle »

In another sign of how corrupt and useless our media has become, there was a huge anti-mosque rally in New York City on June 6, and not one major media outfit covered the event, even though their headquarters are in New York City.
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by Texas Dan Mosby »

Where would you like to see thousands of Muslims Praying each Friday's noon time, in the streets?

The middle east...
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by pbwalker »

Texas Dan Mosby wrote:
Where would you like to see thousands of Muslims Praying each Friday's noon time, in the streets?

The middle east...
Where do you propose we send people who genuflect, make the sign of the cross, sing religious hymns, etc.?

It's not a one way street...
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by Texas Dan Mosby »

It's not a one way street...
No, it is not.

However, in my opinion, the middle east is a far better place for Muslims than is the United States, as our culture completely clashes with their faith. That is simply my opinion, and is neither right, nor wrong.
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Texas Dan Mosby wrote:
It's not a one way street...
No, it is not.

However, in my opinion, the middle east is a far better place for Muslims than is the United States, as our culture completely clashes with their faith. That is simply my opinion, and is neither right, nor wrong.
A much better solution is to insist that people of faith, regardless of which it is - including the faith of atheism - start treating one another with a little respect. That would be more in line with the Founders' intent.

While I have significant theological issues with Islam, which I won't bring into this discussion, I want the United States of America to be a place where Muslims can practice their religion in peace, respectful of, and alongside other Americans of other religious traditions.

The proposed construction of this particular mosque is not in keeping with that spirit.

By the way, the world's largest Muslim populations don't even live in the middle east.
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by chasfm11 »

I'm a strong believer in freedom of worship. I believe that everyone should have the right to worship as they please as long as they don't use that right for political purposes. I believe that the NY Mosque is just that - and extension of religion for political purposes.

Why?

Let's focus outside of the US. I spent a lot of time in Denmark in 1993-4. I became very good friends with a Dane. He sent his daughter over to visit with us for several weeks. I often had dinner at his house while I was there. We were very closely aligned in many areas - except his Liberal politics. The views that he expressed to me were similar to the old views expressed in this article:
http://europenews.dk/en/node/6517 There are many sites with copies of this report. I chose one that doesn't appear to have a specific political bias.

Unfortunately, I lost track of my Danish friend. I would love to speak with him now and see if, based on what has happened to his country, he has changed any of his opinions. It is clear from the article that many of his fellow Danes have.

One of the projects that I worked on during the mid-90s was an oil refinery automation for Saudi ARAMCO. The project team was resident in the US and got to know several of them very well. I found many of the things that they did very interesting. As some may know, alcohol is forbidden in Saudia Arabia. One of the reasons that several of the project team members liked and wanted to come to the US was that they could drink alcohol here - and drink they did. They were, however, very firm in the adherence to Sharia in spite of their alcoholic indiscretions.

Last year, in neighboring Lewisville, a Muslim father killed both of his daughters because they both had non-Muslim boyfriends. Under US law, he is guilty of murder but he was not apprehended before he could escape. Under Sharia, he is applauded for upholding his family's honor.

My concern is that many Muslims cannot or will not separate their religious faith from Sharia. It is a package deal as the Denmark article points out. I'm tolerant of those who worship Allah. I'm not tolerant of those who demand to follow Sharia in my community. Our Constitution gives Muslims the freedom to practice their religion. It does not, until they gain an elected majority, the right to change our laws. I see no reason at all while the Danish experience will not be the same here. I'm open to listen to someone who could explain to me why it won't. Until I hear that explanation, I'll continue to believe that the NY Mosque is the first step towards my subjugation under Sharia. I refuse to ignore the symbolism of its location. I don't find Mosques or Buddist temples an affront to me. The Ground Zero Mosque carries an entirely different meaning.
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by Texas Dan Mosby »

^^^^^ Well put.
By the way, the world's largest Muslim populations don't even live in the middle east.
No, however, it is the home of Islam, hence my choice.

Cleveland or Dallas? Not so much...
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by wheelgun1958 »

Oerlikon20mm wrote:
Salty1 wrote:Every building in NYC needs to be built by Union Labor, let's see how they handle this, they are in position to bankrupt the entire project if it is allowed to go forward. Will the dollar be more valuable than doing what is right as an american? Stay tuned, if this is allowed to go forward things could get interesting
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The internationals did. The membership is pretty much split. :boxing
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by gemini »

Chasfm11: Nice informative post.

Here's another with similar comment from the Netherlands. (sorry for the long cut & paste).
A rather long read, but worth the time.

We must wake up before it is too late. According to snopes, the speech below is accurately attributed.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/wilders.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This Will Give You Cold Chills!
Geert Wilders is a Dutch Member of Parliament.

In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: Who lost Europe ?'
Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom, the Netherlands , at the Four Seasons, New York , introducing an Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem .

Dear friends,

Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission. All is not well in the old world. There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic. We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe. This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West. The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe . Then, I will say a few things about Islam. To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem .

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks. But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world. It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen. And if they are, they might regret it. This goes for the police as well. It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children. Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead. With mosques on many street corners. The shops have signs you and I cannot read. You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity. These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics. These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe . These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe . With larger congregations than there are in churches. And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region. Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam , Marseille and Malmo in Sweden . In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim. Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods. Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils. In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims. Non-Muslim women routinely hear 'whore, whore'. Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin . The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves. Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels , because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II. French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya , Israel . I could go on forever with stories like this. Stories about Islamization.

A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe . San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now. Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers. And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate. But there are few signs of that. The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France . One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks. The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate. Muslims demand what they call 'respect'. And this is how we give them respect. We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority. We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey .

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots. Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus. I call the perpetrators 'settlers'. Because that is what they are. They do not come to integrate into our societies; they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam.. Therefore, they are settlers.

Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries. Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet. His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized. Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem. But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time. Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed. Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza. If it is good for Islam, it is good. If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion. Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins. But in its essence Islam is a political ideology. It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person. Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life. Islam means 'submission'. Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia. If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran. The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor. I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times. I support Israel . First, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz, second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance. Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines , Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan , Lebanon , and Aceh in Indonesia . Israel is simply in the way. The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel . It is a war against the West. It is jihad. Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us. If there would have been no Israel , Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest. Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities. But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination. If they can get Israel , they can get everything.. So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'. In my country, the Netherlands , 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II. And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat. Yet there is a greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing. The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine. An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs. With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome , Athens and Jerusalem .

Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts. My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives. All throughout Europe , American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish. My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians. We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us. We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams. Future generations would never forgive us. We cannot squander our liberties. We simply do not have the right to do so.

We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/wilders.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by Deltaboy »

I agree with the guy on the evening news story about this tonite When Hades Freezes Over :mad5 :mad5 :mad5 :mad5 :txflag: :patriot: :fire
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by Beiruty »

As a Muslim, I wanted to post on this topic, however, I feel the flame war would just be ignited on high setting.
In Short, Moderate Muslims are like 95% to 98% of Muslims Population Worldwide. So do not aggregate and blame the whole Muslim community by the actions of the few.

What makes this country great is that we the US Muslims feel free to be Muslim, live as Muslims, Worship as Muslims with no bias, hate or bigotry.
If some want to make this country NOT great anymore by promoting hate and fear is only hurting this great country.
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by gemini »

Beiruty wrote:As a Muslim, I wanted to post on this topic, however, I feel the flame war would just be ignited on high setting.
In Short, Moderate Muslims are like 95% to 98% of Muslims Population Worldwide. So do not aggregate and blame the whole Muslim community by the actions of the few.

What makes this country great is that we the US Muslims feel free to be Muslim, live as Muslims, Worship as Muslims with no bias, hate or bigotry.
If some want to make this country NOT great anymore by promoting hate and fear is only hurting this great country.
I have 2 questions sir:
Why doesn't the 95-98% of moderate muslim population and muslim clergy come forward and publicly condemn the violence against women, suicide bombings, honor killings and the theology and vows to kill all Infidels?
Do the 95-98% of moderate muslims believe in and endorse sharia law?
Thanks
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NY Mosque Thread

Post by Texas Dan Mosby »

Why doesn't the 95-98% of moderate muslim population and muslim clergy come forward and publicly condemn the violence against women, suicide bombings, honor killings and the theology and vows to kill all Infidels?
That's the biggest problem I have with Islam.

99% of muslims could very well be peaceful law abiding citizens opposed to violence, however, considering there are hundreds of millions who choose that particular flavor of religion, that leaves MILLIONS of practitioners willing to support, or at least lend a blind eye, to those who practice islam like it was a homicidal cult.

RARELY, if ever, is there ANY outrage from the "muslim community" when their fellow practitioners lop off some poor dudes head, or indiscriminately bomb a market or a mosque. Where are the universally issued fatwahs from the leaders of the islamic faith condemning such acts? Oh yea, they don't exist, outside of a few brave and reasonable leaders.

Some editor publishes a cartoon of muhammad in a nation that has freedom of the press, and the clerics call for riots in the streets...

Some fanatic VBIED's a mosque, or a market where folks are just trying to buy some food, and you get....nothing. Unless it was done by non-muslims, of course...

I don't accept the "but we're not all homicidal cultists" excuse because it is MUSLIMS that have ALLOWED their "faith" to be usurped and hijacked by lunatics through inaction and silent consent. Until there is a unified front against violence and barbarism, and enough protests from muslims that make the cultists give up using violence, I will continue to have no respect for that particular "religion" and feel that the fewer muslims we have in our nation, the better.

This is but one citizens opinion, so take it for what it's worth. Nothing.
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Re: NY Mosque

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I'm not a moderator, but may I suggest that this thread is approaching being a violation of Rule #11 of this forum.

FORUM RULES
11. Off-topic posts/threads: Since they tend to cause the most problems for other boards, our "off-topic" sub-forum is not an "anything goes" area. Absolutely no discussions of religion, immigration/border security, abortion, race matters, or any other hot-button political issues. (Gun-related political issues can be discussed in other areas.)
Because of my own religious faith, I take issue with Islam's theology. And I've already posted my opinion about the NY mosque story. But I'm not going to harass a member in good standing over his exercise of his First Amendment Right to believe in and practice the religion of his choice.

Beiruty has been a valuable contributing member of this board since Tue Aug 12, 2008, with 669 posts under his belt. Texas Dan Mosby has been a member of this board since Wed Jul 14, 2010, with 19 posts under his belt. When Texas Dan says...
I don't accept the "but we're not all homicidal cultists" excuse because it is MUSLIMS that have ALLOWED their "faith" to be usurped and hijacked by lunatics through inaction and silent consent. Until there is a unified front against violence and barbarism, and enough protests from muslims that make the cultists give up using violence, I will continue to have no respect for that particular "religion" and feel that the fewer muslims we have in our nation, the better.
...he is flaming a TexasCHLForum member for his religious choices. Beiruty did not flame him back, and he has exercised restraint in a thread that must be painful for him to read. May I suggest that folks cut him a little slack and show him a little more respect than that?
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