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I agree with everyone who says it depends. Let's take guns out of it for a minute.

If I'm in public and a small fire breaks out, and I'm close to a fire extinguisher, I will try to put out the fire. However, if an entire wall bursts into flames without warning, my first thought is escape. I will help others escape if I can do that without facing unreasonable risk. The amount of risk depends on who I'm helping, but I'm not going to run through the wall of flames without knowing what's on the other side. I'm not a fireman with their training and gear and team support and everything else.

Something to keep in mind:

One "hero" not often mentioned at Luby's .... is the guy who broke the window from which others escaped.

Suzanne spied an escape route through a broken window,

Hupp escaped through a broken window

Tommy Vaughn, jumped through a plate-glass window allowing others to escape.
In case you wondered.
Sometimes, those who exit first, also serve. (You just don't hear their names as often)

gigag04 wrote: Exceptions would include a school, daycare, and some other unique situation where possibly trading my life would seem acceptable. It sounds ugly but adults who are able to carry and chose not to, are unarmed by choice.

my thoughts exactly, which is why i mentioned the day-care scenario (although i didn't really elaborate in my previous post). adults are just as capable as i am of obtaining their CHL, if they fail to take measures to protect themselves then i feel no obligation to save their lives if i feel it would put mine at risk. i would feel bad for their families and loved ones, but i would feel worse for mine if i were the one that ended up dead because of it. when it comes to children, on the other hand, they have no means to protect themselves and i couldn't live with myself if i felt i were capable of stopping the attacker.

wasn't there an incident sometime within the last couple years where a gunman opened fire on children exiting a school bus? sounds familiar but i don't recall if this is something that happened or was just another "what-if" scenario i read elsewhere.

I will agree with everyone else who says "it depends". I did not get a CHL to be a cop, however, I do believe in the moral obligation to help those around us.

Before I got my CHL, I was coming home from work very late at night, about 2am. I was in a bad part of town and sitting at a stoplight. Across the street there were two larger guys arguing with one smaller guy. All were your classic cholo ganster looking types. All of a sudden, one of the guys, punches the smaller one, who drops to the pavement like a ton of bricks. The other two then start to stomp him.

I don't know these guys, and I am not looking to get involved with a bunch of gangbangers, but I can't sit there and watch someone get beaten to death. I didn't have a gun, but I did have a nice piece of rebar in the back of my truck. I flash my lights on bright and proceed through the red light and pull into the parking lot toward the fight. I was really hoping the assailants would take off running, and thankfully they did. The guy who was getting beaten managed to stagger to his feet and hobbled off in the other direction. I called the police to report what had happened and they said they would send a unit to the area. I went home. I made no effort to follow anyone, get more information, and certainly not to apprehend. My only concern was to stop the activity and then it is up to the police to take it further. I just reported everything I knew, which wasn't much, and gave the 911 operator my phone number in case they wanted to follow up with me. They didn't.

If I had my wife with me, I would not have approached the fight. Was it the "smart" thing to do? No, but I sleep well at night. If I had picked up the paper the next morning and read about some guy getting beaten to death, it would have haunted me. Everyone has to make their own decisions and I don't judge others for theirs, but if there is a way for me to stop evil, I like to believe that I would. Every case is different.

What a great thread, thank you!

My general mindset is that if I wouldn't have done "it" (whatever "it" may be) prior to obtaining my CHL, I'm not likely to do "it" now, perhaps, even, less likely in some circumstances. And I can state with certainty that I would most definitely not have run toward the sound of gunfire prior to obtaining my CHL. That's why God invented cell phones and the digits 9-1-1.

I carry a gun for my personal protection, and the protection of my family. If I were to act like a superhero and insert myself into a situation that I did not need to which resulted in me waking up on the wrong side of the dirt, I have done my family a disservice.

I have a CHL, I am not a cop.

It is all about how much I know and the situation overall. How many shooters, who are they shooting at, do they have rifles, do they have cover, do I have cover, can I make the shot, what is behind my target, what is my rout of escape if I need one or two, how much ammo do I have and so on.

What isn’t considered much is a mix of the two. That is, taking a few well aimed shots from behind cover and concealment and then leaving the area. Something to put fear into the shooter. It is perfectly legal and while it might not work in some situations it might in others. As long as the shot is good and behind the target is clear it is an option.

I thought this was going to be about getting DOT First Responder training.

karder wrote:I will agree with everyone else who says "it depends". I did not get a CHL to be a cop, however, I do believe in the moral obligation to help those around us.

Before I got my CHL, I was coming home from work very late at night, about 2am. I was in a bad part of town and sitting at a stoplight. Across the street there were two larger guys arguing with one smaller guy. All were your classic cholo ganster looking types. All of a sudden, one of the guys, punches the smaller one, who drops to the pavement like a ton of bricks. The other two then start to stomp him.

I don't know these guys, and I am not looking to get involved with a bunch of gangbangers, but I can't sit there and watch someone get beaten to death. I didn't have a gun, but I did have a nice piece of rebar in the back of my truck. I flash my lights on bright and proceed through the red light and pull into the parking lot toward the fight. I was really hoping the assailants would take off running, and thankfully they did. The guy who was getting beaten managed to stagger to his feet and hobbled off in the other direction. I called the police to report what had happened and they said they would send a unit to the area. I went home. I made no effort to follow anyone, get more information, and certainly not to apprehend. My only concern was to stop the activity and then it is up to the police to take it further. I just reported everything I knew, which wasn't much, and gave the 911 operator my phone number in case they wanted to follow up with me. They didn't.

If I had my wife with me, I would not have approached the fight. Was it the "smart" thing to do? No, but I sleep well at night. If I had picked up the paper the next morning and read about some guy getting beaten to death, it would have haunted me. Everyone has to make their own decisions and I don't judge others for theirs, but if there is a way for me to stop evil, I like to believe that I would. Every case is different.

How do you differentiate between good guy and bad guy at 0200 hrs? My truck has a horn and I have a cellphone.

I guess what I say it is like your fate, when time comes one reacts as he is trained. More likely a decision to step in and become "a hero" does only reflect the character of the actor. I am talking about courageousness AND wise decision to act, when doing so will make a real difference at acceptable level of risk. If the risk is unacceptable, no one will fault a CHLer to retreat for safety.

In other words if CHLer is pre-deposed to run and not fight when running is way easier and may be less risky. Being armed is more or less meaningless. On the other hand, if CHLer is willing and capable to fight when being armed does make a difference.

Abraham wrote:Some CHLers have stated words to the effect that if at a distance they heard gun shots they'd run to them with the thought of helping innocents in trouble. Others responded they got a CHL to protect themselves and their family members only.

If, as stated by some, as CHLers they'd run to a shooting with the thought of helping the defenseless, doesn't that in effect make them first responders?

Other CHLers say no to this idea, but if a shooting situation occurs and they're unavoidably in the middle of it and while responding to save themselves and/or loved ones as a by-product (if you will) of their actions, they happen to save others - then yes, they'd help others within the parameters of such a situation - but only in such an unavoidable situation.
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What do you think?

I would never run toward shots heard from a distance.

A first responder is a person who is trained and prepared for the situation at hand. Running toward a shooting without knowing where it is coming from or the situation doesn't make a person a first responder any more than people who pull over to gawk at a train wreck. Regardless of good intentions, they often wind up causing more chaos, and hindering the true, trained first responders. (My dad used to have a saying about the road to heck being paved with good intentions. )

With regard to the "unavoidable in the middle" question, I'm firmly with the "all depends" crowd.

Distilled down to its most basic form, my thoughts and training lead me to think along the lines of "I don't carry a gun to shoot a threat, I carry a gun so that if I have no other choice I can use deadly force to stop a threat." To anyone who thinks that running away when possible negates the idea of carrying a gun I ask you do the following: The next time your tire is low on air rather than stopping and putting air in it, stop and swap it for your spare. After all if your not going to use it, then its kinda meaningless to carry it around.

G.A. Heath wrote:Distilled down to its most basic form, my thoughts and training lead me to think along the lines of "I don't carry a gun to shoot a threat, I carry a gun so that if I have no other choice I can use deadly force to stop a threat." To anyone who thinks that running away when possible negates the idea of carrying a gun I ask you do the following: The next time your tire is low on air rather than stopping and putting air in it, stop and swap it for your spare. After all if your not going to use it, then its kinda meaningless to carry it around.

Turning your back while someone shooting at anything moving get you killed. I hope you have a plan to retreat with your firearm handy.

karder wrote:Everyone has to make their own decisions and I don't judge others for theirs, but if there is a way for me to stop evil, I like to believe that I would. Every case is different.

Pacifist wrote:My general mindset is that if I wouldn't have done "it" (whatever "it" may be) prior to obtaining my CHL, I'm not likely to do "it" now, perhaps, even, less likely in some circumstances. And I can state with certainty that I would most definitely not have run toward the sound of gunfire prior to obtaining my CHL. That's why God invented cell phones and the digits 9-1-1.

You sound like a pacifist .... oh wait

But seriously, these are two opposite thoughts on the subject and I firmly believe both are valid and reasonable choices for the individuals who make them. Would be nice for antis or gun-issue moderates to see discussions like this, see that "gun people" are not a monolithic single-brain entity controlled by evil henchmen wearing NRA patches. Even within our own "gun cultures" we are all free-thinking, highly intelligent and compassionate human beings.