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Curling of the finger is not required for releasing your sidearm from a serpa holster. A simple press or slide of the finger does the trick. Anyone who curls their finger is looking for trouble. I've been wearing my Beretta all weekend in it's Serpa holster and specifically tested that feature before purchasing it. One of the selling points was that your finger stays pointed straight.

austinrealtor wrote:This ND was obviously caused by the inherently unsafe design of the 1911 style pistol



But in all seriousness, listening to the shooter's own analysis of how/why this happened, this type of situation is why I've always been a bit leery of cross training with a 1911-type gun and a gun with no thumb safety (like a Glock or DA revolver) - two different types of muscle memory and battery of arms. Throw in two distinctly different types of retention release devices on what are otherwise similar holsters and you've got a lot of different movements to keep straight between the two set ups.

Edited to add: and kudos to the guy for posting this video on YouTube so we all can learn from his mistakes

I would attribute 80% of this incident to trying to work at speed with apparently insufficient training in two substantially different gun and holster systems that require substantially different movements to perform the required task.

Various types of failures are often the result when one tries to take task execution beyond a conscious step by step process and work from "muscle memory" or whatever one prefers to call a trained stimulus / response sequence under these circumstances.

This holds true with any psychomotor skill, but when guns are involved, the results are often serious and permanent.

It's all about one's draw technique and practice. Little to do with a gun or the holster! Practice w/out rounds at first.

Excaliber wrote:I would attribute 80% of this incident to trying to work at speed with apparently insufficient training in two substantially different gun and holster systems that require substantially different movements to perform the required task.

Various types of failures are often the result when one tries to take task execution beyond a conscious step by step process and work from "muscle memory" or whatever one prefers to call a trained stimulus / response sequence under these circumstances.

This holds true with any psychomotor skill, but when guns are involved, the results are often serious and permanent.

He did state that he had practiced many times, but obviously something went wrong. He was very fortunate to have "dodged the bullet", well almost.

Changed my mind, wont get caught up replying to personal attacks...
Back to the topic..

A holster is like a shoe, ya half to get one that fits and you have to use it as designed, and if you want to use it well, you have to train. The Tex in that vid.... well he might have the first two points, but he's lacking on the last. He was set for failure no matter what holster he had strapped on.

Well I think the video is a fake...everyone knows that if you hit someone in the leg with a 45, the whole leg gets blown off and the person dies from massive trauma and shock

What we do know from the video is the guy shot himself in the leg while practicing draws at contact distance and it appears to have been caused by his finger depressing the trigger (not a weapon malfunction). As to his level of training, we know nothing. We can of course infer all sorts of things, but they're just guesses.

As I was looking for some available classes I saw this notice posted on the K R Training website.

BLACKHAWK SERPA HOLSTER NOW PROHIBITED IN KR TRAINING CLASSES

Based on an evaluation of policies implemented at other schools, and analysis of multiple incidents of self-inflicted gunshot wounds in training classes and competitions, we have decided to prohibit the use of the Blackhawk SERPA holster in our classes. The problem with the SERPA is that the user must press a lever with the trigger finger to release the pistol, and if the shooter does not practice indexing the trigger finger along the slide (away from the trigger guard) as the gun comes out of the holster, the natural flow of body movement is to continue curling the trigger finger as the gun comes out. That movement can obviously lead to the trigger finger pressing on the trigger way too early in the drawstroke. There have been multiple self-inflicted gunshot wounds at multiple schools all over the US, all a result of the design of this holster and the failure of holster users to put in sufficient slow dry practice to master the complex movement and fine motor skill of operating this holster while drawing. I believe that the number of schools banning this holster has reached critical mass and that prohibition of this holster has now become an industry "best practice", so KR Training now prohibits the use of the SERPA holster in our classes in the interest of preventing student self-injury.

While I don't think this incident was cause by the holster, I still don't like Serpas (I own one, came with my M&P40). I prefer that my trigger finger stay straight down the side of the holster and gun until it's ready to fire... I don't want it manipulating anything, ESPECIALLY pressing inward, under stress until I'm ready to pull the trigger. I realize that with this design, the finger does stay straight, but you still have to press inward (the "sweep" some people have mentioned doesn't work for me) on the button to release it.

For a retention holster, I use a Safariland 6360 instead. Feels much more natural.

Excaliber wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:This ND was obviously caused by the inherently unsafe design of the 1911 style pistol



But in all seriousness, listening to the shooter's own analysis of how/why this happened, this type of situation is why I've always been a bit leery of cross training with a 1911-type gun and a gun with no thumb safety (like a Glock or DA revolver) - two different types of muscle memory and battery of arms. Throw in two distinctly different types of retention release devices on what are otherwise similar holsters and you've got a lot of different movements to keep straight between the two set ups.

Edited to add: and kudos to the guy for posting this video on YouTube so we all can learn from his mistakes

I would attribute 80% of this incident to trying to work at speed with apparently insufficient training in two substantially different gun and holster systems that require substantially different movements to perform the required task.

Various types of failures are often the result when one tries to take task execution beyond a conscious step by step process and work from "muscle memory" or whatever one prefers to call a trained stimulus / response sequence under these circumstances.

This holds true with any psychomotor skill, but when guns are involved, the results are often serious and permanent.

Excaliber, thank you for the comment. It may just be that I'm a bit too loose with my choice of words "muscle memory". I'd appreciate some elaboration if you don't mind sharing on the differences - as you understand them - between "muscle memory" and "step-by-step process" .... I've always sort of used the terms "muscle memory" to refer to a learned and applied step-by-step process that just becomes "second nature" after enough repetitions - thus muscle MEMORY. Are you saying that this phenomenon itself is dangerous or are you saying that muscle memory and step-by-step process are distinctly different phenomenon altogether?

This reminds me of Gene Hackman in Clint Eastwood's The Unforgiven. Speed of draw is important, but is not the only factor.

"There is a great scene where Gene Hackman’s character, the Sheriff, is explaining to a biographer that the biographer’s belief about what makes a great gunfighter is wrong.

Hackman as Sheriff: Look son, being a good shot and quick with a pistol don’t do no harm but it don’t mean much next to being cool headed. A man who will keep his head, not get rattled under fire, like as not will kill you.

Biographer: But if the other person is quicker and fires first…

Hackman: Then, he’ll be hurrying and he will miss.

(Hackman draws his pistol not extremely fast but smoothly.) That’s as fast as I can draw and aim and hit anything more than 10 feet away, other than a barn door."

http://www.spartancops.com/gunfighting- ... nforgiven/

As many probably already know, the Serpa holster hasn't been allowed in Suarez International classes (unless they've changed their policy recently) for just this reason though Tactical Response has recently rescinded their embargo.

TX Rancher wrote:Well I think the video is a fake...everyone knows that if you hit someone in the leg with a 45, the whole leg gets blown off and the person dies from massive trauma and shock

(Welcome, Glock 9mm guy. )

1911 leg strikes again.

He can say what he likes but you can see on the slow motion part how after he clears the holster he curls his finger right in the trigger guard. I think he just jumped the gun so to speak before he cleared his own body. Maybe it was from the retention maybe not. I have a serpa and I can clear with out ever bending my finger at all.

ske1eter wrote:

TX Rancher wrote:Well I think the video is a fake...everyone knows that if you hit someone in the leg with a 45, the whole leg gets blown off and the person dies from massive trauma and shock

(Welcome, Glock 9mm guy. )