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Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:52 am
by The Annoyed Man
MasterOfNone wrote:Carry-a-Kimber wrote:longhorn_92 wrote: 3.Keep the action open and the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
So should I wait until I draw my 1911 to pop in a mag and chamber a round??
Should I wait until a quail is in flight to thow a shell in my shotgun??
I don't know how a whitetail would react if I loaded a round and closed the bolt on my Rem 700 while he was standing 150 yards away.
The way the NRA explains this rule is that when you strap on your gun to carry, you are then using it. When you begin hunting, you are then using your gun. Basically, it is either being used or it is being stored.
I would add to that the following: any gun that is not in my safe is a gun that I am using, whether I have it on my person or not. I keep loaded guns in my house. They are not just laying around on the coffee table....although they might be if I am sitting there....but I keep a loaded gun next to my bed. In fact, I keep 2 or 3 loaded guns next to my bed—not because I think I will need three guns during the night, but because I don't know which one I'm going to leave the house with at any given moment until it comes time to leave the house.
I know where they are. I
know they are loaded. There are no rug rats running around my house, and my dog doesn't even know what a gun is and couldn't care less. I am
using each of those guns.
When I put a gun in the safe, then I am not using it, and I store the guns in my safe in an unloaded condition. Even so, when I take one out of the safe, the first thing I do after making sure it is pointed in a safe direction with my finger off the trigger is to
confirm that it isn't loaded.
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:52 am
by wharvey
Carry-a-Kimber wrote:
longhorn_92 wrote: 3.Keep the action open and the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
So should I wait until I draw my 1911 to pop in a mag and chamber a round??
Should I wait until a quail is in flight to thow a shell in my shotgun??
I don't know how a whitetail would react if I loaded a round and closed the bolt on my Rem 700 while he was standing 150 yards away.
As another said, if you are carrying the holstered gun then you are using it. Same with a gun left in the night stand drawer for home defense - depending on who lives there.
As to bird hunting I was taught to unload the gun when crossing fences or traversing ground with dangerous footing but at other time it was OK to leave it chambered. Here is where Cooper's 4 basic rules really come into play. Specially concerning watching the muzzle and what you are doing with your finger.
Deer hunting I personally always keep the chamber empty until I am in the stand then load up when in place. If still hunting I use the same procedure I use when bird hunting. BTW, still hunting with a bow and having that razor sharp broad head exposed really drives home safety concerns. I get more nervous doing that than having a loaded gun.
Hunting is I think the most dangerous shooting sport because there are far fewer safety fall backs. It really puts a premium on following the rules. The fact that you are often miles from assistance if something goes wrong doesn't help.
I suspect that George's point was that the rules as stated were overly complex. Cooper's 4 rules say it all and there is no reason to make things more complicated. Over complication just leads to rules not being followed.
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:11 pm
by Carry-a-Kimber
I always follow Cooper's 4 rules and I agree that if a firearm is out of my safe, it is "in use". The way rule 3 is stated above is very ambiguous, that was my only point. The phrase "in use" mean different things to different people, just as "under control" does. My great-granddad was killed in a hunting accident long before I came along so firearms safety has been a big priority in my family since then.
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:14 pm
by The Annoyed Man
wharvey wrote:Cooper's 4 rules say it all and there is no reason to make things more complicated. Over complication just leads to rules not being followed.
That part I'll agree with. There is an illustrative example from the Bible which teaches this principle......and no, I'm not trying to preach, just using it as an example.
Everybody has heard of the Ten Commandments, but almost nobody is able to follow them (or even remember them all)—assuming you have a personal religious bent and even care to try. But when the disciples asked Jesus which was the
greatest commandment, he gave them just
two: 1) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind;" and 2) "Love your neighbor as yourself." These two are easy to remember, and (here is where the illustration really kicks in) if you follow
those two, you will be
automatically obedient to the original ten.
Again, not trying to preach, just trying to illustrate. So Jeff Cooper's 4 rules are easy to remember, and if you adhere to them "religiously," you will be automatically obedient to just about any other gun safety rule that anybody cares to dream up.
Another illustration of simplicity which covers everything: The Three Laws of Robotics...
- A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
- A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
- A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:26 pm
by wgoforth
The Annoyed Man wrote:wharvey wrote:Cooper's 4 rules say it all and there is no reason to make things more complicated. Over complication just leads to rules not being followed.
That part I'll agree with. There is an illustrative example from the Bible which teaches this principle......and no, I'm not trying to preach, just using it as an example.
Everybody has heard of the Ten Commandments, but almost nobody is able to follow them (or even remember them all)—assuming you have a personal religious bent and even care to try. But when the disciples asked Jesus which was the
greatest commandment, he gave them just
two: 1) "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind;" and 2) "Love your neighbor as yourself." These two are easy to remember, and (here is where the illustration really kicks in) if you follow
those two, you will be
automatically obedient to the original ten.
Again, not trying to preach, just trying to illustrate. So Jeff Cooper's 4 rules are easy to remember, and if you adhere to them "religiously," you will be automatically obedient to just about any other gun safety rule that anybody cares to dream up.
Another illustration of simplicity which covers everything: The Three Laws of Robotics...
- A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
- A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
- A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
You got something against preaching?
Very good examples, and at least meaningful to me.... may incorporate that into the safety portion of my class!
BTW... you are correct the "Top Ten" were summed up into two... as the first 4 of the ten was about man's relation to God; Second half about man's relation to man. So,(1) Love God (2) Love your fellow man...and you are indeed keeping the 10.. as you say, same with the 4 laws of safety... except we could really sum it up with rule one, all guns are loaded. The other three really are applications of the first. And it's ok if someone says I am preaching, I'm "licensed" for that too
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:37 pm
by speedsix
...preachin's kinda like CHL advice...ya gotta check it by the book...in THIS case by the Book...and I caught my buddy with his chicken-feathers showin'...I'm givin' you first chance to edit your last post...
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:43 pm
by wgoforth
speedsix wrote:...preachin's kinda like CHL advice...ya gotta check it by the book...in THIS case by the Book...and I caught my buddy with his chicken-feathers showin'...I'm givin' you first chance to edit your last post...
Ah, first ~four~....thank you!
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:49 pm
by speedsix
(and I'll split a cherry pie in half with you anyday...long as I get the SECOND half!!!)
...I know, I'm tryin' hard for the brass ball!!!
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:51 pm
by wgoforth
speedsix wrote:
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:51 pm
by wgoforth
speedsix wrote:(and I'll split a cherry pie in half with you anyday...long as I get the SECOND half!!!)
...I know, I'm tryin' hard for the brass ball!!!
Lol, any day pard
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:53 pm
by wgoforth
speedsix wrote:(and I'll split a cherry pie in half with you anyday...long as I get the SECOND half!!!)
...I know, I'm tryin' hard for the brass ball!!!
Well you aint getting the feather end for shore. Wonder how many know what that's about?
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:14 pm
by bayouhazard
A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat.
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:15 pm
by speedsix
...TAM might...
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:09 pm
by Jumping Frog
MasterOfNone wrote:"Every gun is loaded.. everytime all the time" - How do you disassemble and clean a loaded gun?
Rule lists can also be unnecessarily specific and long, attempting to identify everything a person could possibly do that is unsafe.
There are lots of people who paraphase or slightly re-word Jeff Cooper's Four Rules. I find it useful to go back to the source. This is a quote from "Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6, No. 2 February, 1998":
The everlasting problem for the shooter remains gunhandling. Of the three elements of shooting skill - marksmanship, gunhandling, and mind-set - it is gunhandling which gives us the most trouble. The way people handled their weapons at the SHOT Show was enough to make one's blood run cold, and many of these people are presumably "experts" in the firearms field. It would seem that while a great many shooters understand the four basic rules of safe gunhandling, they seem to think that the rules only apply on the range when under supervision. I have tried for decades to impress upon people the fact that the four rules are immutable and ever present. They apply at all times and in all circumstances. Somebody asked me what they were the other day (somewhat to my dismay), so for the purposes of those who came in late let me put them forth again now.
RULE 1 - ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.
RULE 2 - NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.
RULE 3 - KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.
RULE 4 - BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.
Re: Firearm Negligence
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:14 am
by Liberty
The Annoyed Man wrote:Liberty wrote:A couple of these rules seem outright silly.
My guns are always loaded. An unloaded gun is pretty useless. Like a car out of gas.
I rely on my guns to keep my family and and seek safe. Failure when needed could be disastrous, I also stake my life on my cars mechanical condition.
I'm not sure where these rules come from, but I have some suspicions Mr. Fudd may have had something to do with it. They obviously didn't come from anyone self defense orientated.
Rules are conceived to be universally applicable to the initiated and the uninitiated alike. To you, a practiced gun owner, being told that a gun should be treated as if it is always loaded, all the time may seem silly......because
of course you treat them that way anyway, because
of course they
ARE loaded. It seems redundant. But to the first time gun owner/first time shooter, it is
not obvious.
TAM, \
I think you misread my post. My remarks about the rules were not about treating ever gun as loaded. But was aimed at what I perceived as outright sillyness of keeping the chamber empty and the bolt open until ready to fire. The guy that came up with that rule is being silly and presenting a good way to get people killed. The type of person that wants us to keep our guns empty is usually a Brady or a person that believes the second amendment is about hunting
I propose that not only is it silly to walk around with an unloaded gun on our hips, but that it is outright dangerous thing to do.
I think you thought I was stating that the rule of treating every gun as if load was silly. No that isn't what I was trying to say. I believe that is a very important rule, and one that should not be ignored. or taken for granted. You are correct that this is one rule that the more experienced might be more likely to disobey than someone who is newer. Again I think it is the sportsman that is more like to get in trouble with this rule. A person that carries 24/7 and keeps a gun near by at all times, should understand that the gun is always loaded. Hunters and sportsman are dealing with supposedly empty guns all the time. For some of us the only time we deal with an unloaded gun is when we are cleaning them or between refills at the range. I don't mean to imply that everyone should keep every gun loaded at all times. This of course would be preposterous.