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Re: Deaf Students
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:19 pm
by The Annoyed Man
57Coastie wrote:Charles L. Cotton wrote:I had one person call about teaching a deaf student and they were going to provide the signer. I never heard back, so I wondered if the cost was prohibitive. I think it would be quite presumptuous to expect the instructor to cover the cost of a signer. That's not a reasonable accommodation.
Chas.
I suspect that the possible legal significance of Chas.' statement here may not be recognized for what it is by all our readers.
"A reasonable accommodation" is a concept which has arisen under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the "ADA."
With the greatest of respect for Chas. and his legal expertise, and I really mean that, I must submit that his conclusion that expecting the instructor to cover the cost of a signer is not a reasonable accommodation is stated as a fact, and not as his opinion. There are elements of our government which are entrusted to make such determinations, quite often with fine lawyers on both sides.
I am neither saying nor implying that I disagree with Chas.' opinion. I only mean to suggest that the big question here is whether or not there
is a reasonable accommodation out there somewhere to meet the legitimate needs of this deaf person, and, if so, what it might be. Others here have suggested other accommodations. One or more of them might be reasonable, and I compliment those members of the forum for using their imagination in this respect.
This is from one who has had a Cochlear implant to mitigate his deafness. I know what it is like to be unable to hear. It is horrible. A hearing professional has suggested that several elements of my prior lifestyle most likely contributed to my deafness, one of which was my firing handguns for almost 60 years in competition and otherwise, back to the days when ear protection was not common, and tended to be a pinch of cotton pushed into the ear, if even that. I may also l be stating an opinion as a fact when I say that I can assure you that the cost of a Cochlear implant is not something every wage-earner can absorb easily.
Jim
I'm not taking a position, but I was wondering if someone was going to bring this aspect up.......because it is the first thing that occurred to me when I first read the OP's post.
There is an easy way to solve this problem: Let the market fix it. The first CHL instructors who also know American Sign Language will have a leg up on determining who will get the business of deaf customers. Allow me to draw an illustration, using attorneys as the "holders of special knowledge" in the similar position to CHL instructors here. If you are a deaf person who wishes to pursue litigation for a violation of the ADA, wouldn't you seek out an attorney who had experience in handling these cases, versus suing a criminal law practitioner for A) not having "reasonable accommodations" to handle your deafness and B) for not having litigation experience in the area of ADA law?
Jim, what exactly does the law define as a "reasonable accommodation?" Can it legally be something which would be so expensive as to put the instructor out of business? If the cost of a sign language translator for a whole day is $400, versus the teaching fee charged of something in the $100-$150 range, then each deaf student would represent a net loss of something around $250 on the instructor. Shouldn't the "reasonable accommodation" be tied to the average fees charged by CHL instructors in the given area? If it was a matter of a "one time" cost.....like building a wheelchair ramp, for instance.....then that would be different than requiring an instructor to take a net loss on every deaf student.
What say you?
Re: Deaf Students
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:01 pm
by 57Coastie
The Annoyed Man wrote: Jim, what exactly does the law define as a "reasonable accommodation?" Can it legally be something which would be so expensive as to put the instructor out of business? If the cost of a sign language translator for a whole day is $400, versus the teaching fee charged of something in the $100-$150 range, then each deaf student would represent a net loss of something around $250 on the instructor. Shouldn't the "reasonable accommodation" be tied to the average fees charged by CHL instructors in the given area? If it was a matter of a "one time" cost.....like building a wheelchair ramp, for instance.....then that would be different than requiring an instructor to take a net loss on every deaf student.
What say you?
I don't know, Chris. This is why we have judges. What is a "reasonable man?" I don't know. I have tried to define the latter to a jury many times, Chris, and I still do not know.
Does cost to a person or business constitute a part of the equation? Certainly. Is it something akin to "cost effective?" Perhaps. Can the accommodation put a business out of business? Perhaps. The Chamber of Commerce argued that this was inevitable all over the country prior to the passage of the act. I have no readout on how correct their speculation was. (I must compliment a Bush, by the way. Hard to believe?)
The "reasonable accommodation" must not always be made personally by the person or business concerned. It might already exist, and calling it to the attention of the disabled person might suffice.
The "deciders" will often do what they call a "balancing act," but each case is treated on its own merits and there is no magic bullet.
Not an easy question, Chris, and I cannot venture an answer, other than that it is something like pornography -- I don't know what it is, but I can generally tell whether it is if I see it.
Of course, all this begs the question as to whether the ADA even applies to this situation.
Helpful, aren't I?
Jim
Re: Deaf Students
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:40 pm
by bigbang
In general, if the cost of an accommodation is an undue hardship, the individual with a disability should be given the option of paying for or providing the accommodation themself. It sounds like most instructors who posted are willing to allow the deaf student to hire or provide their own translator, and not charge the translator for a seat in the class.
Re: Deaf Students
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:59 pm
by urnoodle
cabindoor wrote:...This person actually did some leg work and found an agency that will supply a volunteer signer, but once I told him that the course is a mandatory 10 hours, he said that the signer would have to be paid 40 dollars an hour and that I would need TWO signers based on the length of the course.
What the OP references is the part that puzzles me. The student found a volunteer but as soon as the OP stated the course was a mandatory 10 hours, the prospective student changed from a from having a volunteer to one that requires $40/hour with an additional signer due to course length. I see how one signer can be considered a reasonable accomodation. If the student originally thought the course was 5 hours, then the signer would volunteer for the first 5 hours and the remaining 5 could be completed by second signer at the rate of $40/hour. That would mean the both signers would receive the course for free and the student would be out only $100 for the 2nd signer's wage. I'm not great at math but that seems like it would work out. Any thoughts on my crazy math?
Re: Deaf Students
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:04 am
by The Annoyed Man
urnoodle wrote:Any thoughts on my crazy math?
Now can you straighten out the Obama Healthcare Tax for us?
Re: Deaf Students
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:15 pm
by urnoodle
The Annoyed Man wrote:urnoodle wrote:Any thoughts on my crazy math?
Now can you straighten out the Obama Healthcare Tax for us?
Yea...that one...ummmm.... I don't think anyone can straighten that mess out.
