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I'm not going to argue with anyone's interpretations thus far, but I will say something is seriously messed up here. I worked as a bartender at Bass Hall for a number of years. There's no third party providing bar services at the hall. The money made goes straight to the hall; additionally all bartenders are paid by Bass Hall (more appropriately "Performing Arts Fort Worth"), so it may be something to look into. I will say as a caveat that things could have changed recently, but I still have a few friends that work there and haven't heard anything of the sort.

The address referenced above is for some of the administrative offices connected to the hall; that same building houses two event venue spaces that are rented out for wedding and parties. If you told me that that space by itself made 51% of its revenue off alcohol sales, I'd almost believe it. Thinking back now I want to say that they had two separate licences for the different buildings.

I can't believe though that the hall would be a red sign. The bars combined don't do enough business to make up a large percentage of the total revenue. However, having said that I also found this on the TABC site:

License #: MB428754

Trade Name: ARTS AMENITIES INC.
Owner: ARTS AMENITIES INC.
Location Address:
200 E 4TH STREET
FORT WORTH , TX 76102
Mailing Address:
330 E 4TH ST
FORT WORTH , TX 76102
County: Tarrant Orig. Issue Date: 3/31/1998
Status: Current Exp. Date: 3/30/2013
Wine Percent:
Location Phone No.: 8172124308
Subordinates: CB,LB,PE
Related To: Gun Sign: RED

This address would be more appropriate for Bass Hall itself, additionally the issue date is just prior to the hall's grand opening. However, as you can see it also says "Gun Sign: RED". Again, I can't believe that the hall would make more than 51% of its revenue from alcohol, having worked there.

I don't think the whole hall is off limits, it has been said many times that if a vendor is at the location and is 51% then the whole venue is off limits, however thats not what the Houston Office enforcement people have told me, the vendors in the bowling alleys don't make the whole alley off limits, the vendors in the airport don't make the whole airport a 51% location, so there must be some nebulous thing that changes things that I'm just not seeing

So what if the converse were true - where a business does not generate 51% of its revenue from on-site alcohol consumption sales but posts a 51% sign? Is it legal to cc in such a place?

I went to the symphony Friday 8-23-13.

They had a red 51% sign at both corner entrances on a movable podium / post structure. They were inside, about 5 feet from the doors, and right in the middle of the two sets of doors as you walk in.

Not sure if it is a valid 51% location, but they defiantly put it in a location that it can't be missed as you walk in.

Oh, and although the symphony is not really my thing, it was pretty darn good!

z_clark wrote:I went to the symphony Friday 8-23-13.

They had a red 51% sign at both corner entrances on a movable podium / post structure. They were inside, about 5 feet from the doors, and right in the middle of the two sets of doors as you walk in.

Not sure if it is a valid 51% location, but they defiantly put it in a location that it can't be missed as you walk in.

Oh, and although the symphony is not really my thing, it was pretty darn good!

I sent an e-mail to the TABC last year and never got a reply, but from what you wrote here they at least made them change the signs to comply with the law. I still find it hard to believe it is a valid 51% location espically after what SigM4 said as a former bartender at the Bass Hall.

And yes - I grew up on Rock n Roll, but really enjoy the symphony when I have a chance.

Jaguar wrote:

z_clark wrote:I went to the symphony Friday 8-23-13.

They had a red 51% sign at both corner entrances on a movable podium / post structure. They were inside, about 5 feet from the doors, and right in the middle of the two sets of doors as you walk in.

Not sure if it is a valid 51% location, but they defiantly put it in a location that it can't be missed as you walk in.

Oh, and although the symphony is not really my thing, it was pretty darn good!

I sent an e-mail to the TABC last year and never got a reply, but from what you wrote here they at least made them change the signs to comply with the law. I still find it hard to believe it is a valid 51% location espically after what SigM4 said as a former bartender at the Bass Hall.

And yes - I grew up on Rock n Roll, but really enjoy the symphony when I have a chance.

It IS a 51% location. You can look it up here http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and use the license number MB428754 or just see SigM4's post above. The reason it is a RED location is the alcohol sales are handled by a contracted company named ARTS AMENITIES INC that holds the liquor license for the location. If that contracted company makes more than 51% of their revenue from the sale of alcohol, then the license is issued to them as a >51% location, doesn't matter about the rest of the income from the hall itself. When the concessionaire applied for the license, they more than likely listed the whole building as the location for sales, so the whole building will be off limits. The only way you can validate the area covered by the license is to contact the TABC and ask them to look at that particular license and see if the whole address is included, but more than likely it will be as they normally will cover anywhere in the building a person is allowed to take their alcohol to, which includes the lobby, restaurants and performance hall itself.

EDIT TO ADD: This is a loophole that needs to be addressed by statute and remove the 51% restriction from CHL's carrying.

Keith B wrote:

Jaguar wrote:

z_clark wrote:I went to the symphony Friday 8-23-13.

They had a red 51% sign at both corner entrances on a movable podium / post structure. They were inside, about 5 feet from the doors, and right in the middle of the two sets of doors as you walk in.

Not sure if it is a valid 51% location, but they defiantly put it in a location that it can't be missed as you walk in.

Oh, and although the symphony is not really my thing, it was pretty darn good!

I sent an e-mail to the TABC last year and never got a reply, but from what you wrote here they at least made them change the signs to comply with the law. I still find it hard to believe it is a valid 51% location espically after what SigM4 said as a former bartender at the Bass Hall.

And yes - I grew up on Rock n Roll, but really enjoy the symphony when I have a chance.

It IS a 51% location. You can look it up here http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and use the license number MB428754 or just see SigM4's post above. The reason it is a RED location is the alcohol sales are handled by a contracted company named ARTS AMENITIES INC that holds the liquor license for the location. If that contracted company makes more than 51% of their revenue from the sale of alcohol, then the license is issued to them as a >51% location, doesn't matter about the rest of the income from the hall itself. When the concessionaire applied for the license, they more than likely listed the whole building as the location for sales, so the whole building will be off limits. The only way you can validate the area covered by the license is to contact the TABC and ask them to look at that particular license and see if the whole address is included, but more than likely it will be as they normally will cover anywhere in the building a person is allowed to take their alcohol to, which includes the lobby, restaurants and performance hall itself.

EDIT TO ADD: This is a loophole that needs to be addressed by statute and remove the 51% restriction from CHL's carrying.

Good catch with the ARTS AMENITIES, INC. Thank you.

I thought when SigM4 said he was paid by Performing Arts Fort Worth it would mean they were the one with the license making the whole business income reportable for the purpose of percentage of aclohol sales - but I guess as long as someone pays you it doesn't matter who has the license.

And yes - they need to change this law.

Whoa.... I'm lost. So, I'm at a festival, no signs posted, but there is a beer garden and of course their revenue exceeds 51%. If CHL off limits? Would it matter if festival is downtown/outdoors? Or, would being indoors be different?

Texsquatch wrote:Whoa.... I'm lost. So, I'm at a festival, no signs posted, but there is a beer garden and of course their revenue exceeds 51%. If CHL off limits? Would it matter if festival is downtown/outdoors? Or, would being indoors be different?

If the address is listed on the TABC database as 51%, then yes, it's off limits.

chamberc wrote:

Texsquatch wrote:Whoa.... I'm lost. So, I'm at a festival, no signs posted, but there is a beer garden and of course their revenue exceeds 51%. If CHL off limits? Would it matter if festival is downtown/outdoors? Or, would being indoors be different?

If the address is listed on the TABC database as 51%, then yes, it's off limits.

Actually, it does not have to be in the database. Festivals could potentially be issued a temporary license and the database may not get updated before they festival occurs, or ever if the license expires before they enter it. And, indoors or outdoors doesn't matter, if it is a >51% location, then no carry. And, it depends on the area defined on the license application and approved by the TABC. No way to know really how much that is or what it covers.

As for no signs, they are supposed to have either the red (>51% or no carry) or blue (<51% or carry OK) sign posted. But, that doesn't mean they will. No sign posted still doesn't make it legal if you accidentally carry into a >51% location, but there is a defense to prosecution if the establishment doesn't have the sign posted, or the wrong sign posted and you carry there. Still may have to defend yourself in court though.

Best bet is, if you are carrying, and you suspicion the location is 51%, signs or not you should probably steer clear of it.

Keith B wrote: As for no signs, they are supposed to have either the red (>51% or no carry) or blue (<51% or carry OK) sign posted. But, that doesn't mean they will. No sign posted still doesn't make it legal if you accidentally carry into a >51% location, but there is a defense to prosecution if the establishment doesn't have the sign posted, or the wrong sign posted and you carry there. Still may have to defend yourself in court though.

Thanks, Keith.. great clarification!

cb1000rider wrote:

Keith B wrote: As for no signs, they are supposed to have either the red (>51% or no carry) or blue (<51% or carry OK) sign posted. But, that doesn't mean they will. No sign posted still doesn't make it legal if you accidentally carry into a >51% location, but there is a defense to prosecution if the establishment doesn't have the sign posted, or the wrong sign posted and you carry there. Still may have to defend yourself in court though.

Thanks, Keith.. great clarification!

Oh, and a red 51% sign on a non-51% location does not make the location legally off-limits for carry, but as Ricky used to say to Lucy 'You got some 'splainin' to do' if you get caught carrying and the officer thinks it is a prohibited location. The license posted would be your evidence to show where it says GUN SIGN BLUE and not RED.

Jaguar, I have had the same problem looking up establishments on the TABC website. I've found the best way is use their license number, which you can get by downloading the ZIP file for the county from the TABC site. Makes it much easier to search establishments i the whole county.

So... instead of alienating the entire CHL community, they create another entity whose sole business is selling alcohol and put up a 51% sign. I'd be happier if they were just up front about it and put up a 30.06 sign. At least I'd know they don't want my money.

Larry

Could one assume that the whole facility would fall under the 51% license/signage because one can carry their purchased beverage around the facility ?