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MeMelYup wrote:Holding a gun on someone is one thing, indiscriminately shooting at people is something else.

I consider this risk everytime I leave the house, whether for work, or off duty. It is a very real and dangerous threat that each of us face who carry daily.

However, if I find myself in a defensive shooting, and upon scanning for additional targets see someone holding cover on me, I will move to cover and engage them, kicking off a nasty cycle.

That is the one difference in training between CHL and LEO that I think matters - and it is literally the only one - is that of threat discrimination. I'm sure not all agencies do it, but most major LE agencies put their guys through some form of dynamic threat discrimination training, either via Sim rounds or interactive simulators (which are intense, I assure you). It's not enough of an issue for me to feel like it warrants further 2A infringement, but I would endorse every person who carries, regardless of vocation and credentials, to pursue some of this type of training.

gigag04 wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:Holding a gun on someone is one thing, indiscriminately shooting at people is something else.

I consider this risk everytime I leave the house, whether for work, or off duty. It is a very real and dangerous threat that each of us face who carry daily.

However, if I find myself in a defensive shooting, and upon scanning for additional targets see someone holding cover on me, I will move to cover and engage them, kicking off a nasty cycle.

That is the one difference in training between CHL and LEO that I think matters - and it is literally the only one - is that of threat discrimination. I'm sure not all agencies do it, but most major LE agencies put their guys through some form of dynamic threat discrimination training, either via Sim rounds or interactive simulators (which are intense, I assure you). It's not enough of an issue for me to feel like it warrants further 2A infringement, but I would endorse every person who carries, regardless of vocation and credentials, to pursue some of this type of training.

I can't help but remember the scene in Magnum Force where Clint Eastwood is participating in the SFPD dynamic threat assessment competition and shoots several innocent targets with his .44 and loses the competition.

un0fficial wrote:Thought provoking question with some great answers. :)

In each of my CHL classes, I cover what I call the "Nightmare Mall Scenario" where shots are fired and you have no idea what is happening. This segment usually prompts some very good, thought provoking discussions and it frequently gets folks to think about an issue they never considered.

There's nothing wrong with coming to the aid of an innocent 3rd person to keep them from being killed, but I stress that 1) if you don't know the people involved; and 2) didn't see the event(s) from the beginning, then you probably don't have enough information to get involved. Yes, sometimes the circumstances are clear enough to get involved, but not always and I dare say not frequently.

Thanks for posting this excellent question.
Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

un0fficial wrote:Thought provoking question with some great answers. :)

In each of my CHL classes, I cover what I call the "Nightmare Mall Scenario" where shots are fired and you have no idea what is happening. This segment usually prompts some very good, thought provoking discussions and it frequently gets folks to think about an issue they never considered.

There's nothing wrong with coming to the aid of an innocent 3rd person to keep them from being killed, but I stress that 1) if you don't know the people involved; and 2) didn't see the event(s) from the beginning, then you probably don't have enough information to get involved. Yes, sometimes the circumstances are clear enough to get involved, but not always and I dare say not frequently.

Thanks for posting this excellent question.
Chas.

In this type of scenario I fall back on the training they used to give school kids during the nuclear cold war

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60[/youtube]

Keith B wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

un0fficial wrote:Thought provoking question with some great answers. :)

In each of my CHL classes, I cover what I call the "Nightmare Mall Scenario" where shots are fired and you have no idea what is happening. This segment usually prompts some very good, thought provoking discussions and it frequently gets folks to think about an issue they never considered.

There's nothing wrong with coming to the aid of an innocent 3rd person to keep them from being killed, but I stress that 1) if you don't know the people involved; and 2) didn't see the event(s) from the beginning, then you probably don't have enough information to get involved. Yes, sometimes the circumstances are clear enough to get involved, but not always and I dare say not frequently.

Thanks for posting this excellent question.
Chas.

In this type of scenario I fall back on the training they used to give school kids during the nuclear cold war

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60[/youtube]

I shouldnt have been eating. I almost choked laughing so hard
\

One thing people tend to forget about is how their own behavior makes them appear to others. As Mas recommends, behaving like an authority figure can help influence others into recognizing that you are not the bad guy. Simple statements such as "stay back; he might still be dangerous," "you, call 911," and "is anybody hurt" provide a quick indication of your role, or at least enough doubt the delay an overeager responder from assuming you are the threat.

Something I've thought about, too. Good thoughts here. And on a related note...

texanjoker wrote: I have covered LEO's in a shooting one time off duty and you can be darn sure they knew I was a off duty LEO before I approached or pulled my gun out. I then covered one who made entry and verified the armed robber was now deceased as the other officer collapsed after the incident.

LEOs,

I've also thought about scenarios in which a CHL might offer help but don't really know how to do it. If it were something at church, where it's LEOs who know me, an offer would be easy to make. But what about some kind of "nightmare mall scenario" or similar? In what ways would you be receptive to a stranger offering cover or other help?

Those with a CHL are not law enforcement officers or even a remote subset.

Those who must fantasize about being a gun hero could quietly buy a CHL badge and affix it to a cool looking leather badge holder. Then they could discreetly slip it into their sock drawer. Once a week or so they could lift out some socks revealing their cool badge, stare at it and fantasize for glorious five minutes.

After which, they could re-pile some socks over their badge and come back next week for a repeat performance.

Do this until the need to be a hero subsides.

Finally, once normality returns, throw away badge.

When I see these discussions, I often recall the final scenes in Crocodile Dundee, when the girl thinks Mick is dead, and Mick's buddy has shot someone wearing the bad guy's clothes who turns out to be Mick because they swapped clothes.

I guess if you came upon a scene where a uniformed LEO was about to be executed, the temptation to "do something" would be overpowering, but there are so many variations and subtleties and potential for bad outcomes that you just never know what the right thing to do is. LEO's and bad guys are so shifty, tricky, what with undercover cops, imposters wearing police grab, informants etc.

I'm glad I live a quiet life free from such imponderables.

No hero complex here. That's why I'm asking for LEO input on when and how it would be appropriate to offer assistance.

It followed from something that was posted by an LEO about his helping other LEOs. And like some other situations discussed, it would be a rare occurrence.

And I'd get a tiara before a badge, anyway.

Abraham wrote:Those with a CHL are not law enforcement officers or even a remote subset.

Those who must fantasize about being a gun hero could quietly buy a CHL badge and affix it to a cool looking leather badge holder. Then they could discreetly slip it into their sock drawer. Once a week or so they could lift out some socks revealing their cool badge, stare at it and fantasize for glorious five minutes.

After which, they could re-pile some socks over their badge and come back next week for a repeat performance.

Do this until the need to be a hero subsides.

Finally, once normality returns, throw away badge.

Generally speaking, there are two types of individuals, 1) those who run away from the sound of gunfire; and 2) those who run toward it. The former are not cowards and the latter are not foolhardy. That's just the way we are wired.

It's also human nature, at least in the south, to want to help people who are being attacked or are otherwise in desperate circumstances. This isn't New York City where 30+ people will sit in their windows and watch a young woman be stabbed many dozen times and not even call the police, because they didn't want to get involved. So it's not a matter of telling Walter Mitty types not to be a hero; that would be easy. Convincing good, caring people who truly do love their "neighbors" to stifle their natural instincts to go to the aid of someone they perceive as an innocent victim until/unless they have enough information to get involved is hard, sometimes very hard.

Chas.

FOF SBT FTW!

(force-on-force scenario-based-training for the win!)

Diesel42 wrote:There has never been a fight I couldn't run away from.
If I can't avoid a threat to my life, only then will I use deadly force to stop the threat.

So far, those two sentences have adequately addressed every scenario I can imagine.
Hope that helps,
Nick

Homie don't run anymore. But I'm happy to just walk away.

jmra wrote:This almost happened in the AZ shooting. A guy in a store heard the shooting and ran out of a store with gun drawn. He came around the corner and saw a guy pointing a gun at a guy on the ground. He almost fired but didn't.

The guy pointing the gun was another CHL who was helping subdue the shooter.

1. You are not a cop. Do not run to gunshots!
2. If you don't KNOW what's going on, you DON'T KNOW what's going on.
3. Shooting a bad guy will change your life forever. Shooting the wrong guy will change your wife and kids lives forever.

Man that story just grows and grows. The CHL holder never removed his weapon from his holster during that incident. His biggest mistake was telling the MSNBC reporter that he almost shot the guy. Using that thought process I guess I almost shoot someone everyday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... -3GTwalrGY#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;!

Wodathunkit wrote:Don your shiny CHL badge, run into the fracas, fire 6-9 warning shots, and yell "Everybody FREEZE! I'm a CHL"

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Logitech+-+ ... Id=3764993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PM me and I'll tell you where to have it sent. I won't charge you for the coffee I spit out.