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MeMelYup wrote:Is the wording in the reg 30.06 text?

Doesn't really matter. If it is, then it's a crime for him to carry & he can be fired if he does. If its not, he can still be fired. But that's only for carrying at work. The OP stated that he doesn't work on Sunday, so when he's at church on Sunday, he's not "at work". At least that makes sense to me.

RottenApple wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:Is the wording in the reg 30.06 text?

Doesn't really matter. If it is, then it's a crime for him to carry & he can be fired if he does. If its not, he can still be fired. But that's only for carrying at work. The OP stated that he doesn't work on Sunday, so when he's at church on Sunday, he's not "at work". At least that makes sense to me.

Exactly,...although it wouldn't be a "crime" for me to carry at work, it would be in violation to our policy which is stated in the handbook:

"No conduct which is unethical or illegal will be tolerated by the Church. In addition, conduct that interferes with our operations, brings discredit to the Church, or is offensive to members, guests, or co-workers will also not be tolerated. Although it is not possible to provide an exhaustive list of all types of impermissible conduct, the following are examples of some, but not all, of the conduct which may lead to disciplinary action, up to and including immediate termination of employment:
...Possession of firearms or illegal weapons while on Church premises and/or in a Church vehicle or at a Church related function."

Funny, though, I am not seeing how carrying a licensed firearm interferes with operations, brings discredit to the church, or is offensive to members, guests or co-workers, especially since said firearm would be concealed and no one would know about it. The rest of the list makes sense, having to do with drug and alcohol use, harassment, falsifying records, unsatisfactory work performance, breach of confidentiality, violation of the Child Abuse Prevention Policy, etc - but that one item is absolute nonsense, IMO. Maybe someday, they will change that to "possession of illegal weapons or unlicensed firearms."

An older version of the handbook is even stricter, and even mentioned prosecution, but I would guess that since that was after the passage of the CHL laws, that would not have been binding anyway. Termination, certainly, but prosecution?

Beckster wrote:

RottenApple wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:Is the wording in the reg 30.06 text?

Doesn't really matter. If it is, then it's a crime for him to carry & he can be fired if he does. If its not, he can still be fired. But that's only for carrying at work. The OP stated that he doesn't work on Sunday, so when he's at church on Sunday, he's not "at work". At least that makes sense to me.

Exactly,...although it wouldn't be a "crime" for me to carry at work, it would be in violation to our policy which is stated in the handbook:

"No conduct which is unethical or illegal will be tolerated by the Church. In addition, conduct that interferes with our operations, brings discredit to the Church, or is offensive to members, guests, or co-workers will also not be tolerated. Although it is not possible to provide an exhaustive list of all types of impermissible conduct, the following are examples of some, but not all, of the conduct which may lead to disciplinary action, up to and including immediate termination of employment:
...Possession of firearms or illegal weapons while on Church premises and/or in a Church vehicle or at a Church related function."
Funny, though, I am not seeing how carrying a licensed firearm interferes with operations, brings discredit to the church, or is offensive to members, guests or co-workers, especially since said firearm would be concealed and no one would know about it. The rest of the list makes sense, having to do with drug and alcohol use, harassment, falsifying records, unsatisfactory work performance, breach of confidentiality, violation of the Child Abuse Prevention Policy, etc - but that one item is absolute nonsense, IMO. Maybe someday, they will change that to "possession of illegal weapons or unlicensed firearms."

An older version of the handbook is even stricter, and even mentioned prosecution, but I would guess that since that was after the passage of the CHL laws, that would not have been binding anyway. Termination, certainly, but prosecution?

I would at least ask if this policy was meant to include licensed concealed carry. Maybe ask in a non-specific way.

That is correct. Although, a lot of places think they can be held liable if anything happens, not realizing they can be sued by CHL holders if something happens to one of them.
Petition for a change that states "according to State law," wherever it talks about weapons.

I know of at least one person that carries at our church.

One thing to watch or consider: Many, if not most churches have some sort of school program. It might be pre-school, it might be "mothers day out", it might be "vacation bible school". If those "school buildings" are attached to the church or where you're thinking about carrying, it's just going to take one concerned party to get you in a lot of trouble, 30.06 sign or not. I'll let you guys argue about if this is actually a "school" or a gray area, but I can tell you where I am they will arrest you and let the court sort it out.

The one person that I know of that carries says that he has permission from the Pastor. That may be the case. I didn't pester him about written permission nor did I pester him about the fact that our church is attached to a private school that our son attends.

cb1000rider wrote:I know of at least one person that carries at our church.

I know of at least 4, my husband and his best friend being 2 of those. No one else really knows or cares, as far as I can tell. We have laughed about it in staff meeting, just semi joking that it is probably good to have at least one armed person in the choir loft who can see if trouble is coming.


We do have a Child Development Center in our church, which just operates on weekdays. We don't really call it "school" but you present an interesting consideration.

No conduct which is unethical or illegal will be tolerated by the Church.

Isn't banning lawfully carried concealed handguns unethical?

sunny beach wrote:

No conduct which is unethical or illegal will be tolerated by the Church.

Isn't banning lawfully carried concealed handguns unethical?

lol...

cb1000rider wrote:I know of at least one person that carries at our church.

One thing to watch or consider: Many, if not most churches have some sort of school program. It might be pre-school, it might be "mothers day out", it might be "vacation bible school". If those "school buildings" are attached to the church or where you're thinking about carrying, it's just going to take one concerned party to get you in a lot of trouble, 30.06 sign or not. I'll let you guys argue about if this is actually a "school" or a gray area, but I can tell you where I am they will arrest you and let the court sort it out.

The one person that I know of that carries says that he has permission from the Pastor. That may be the case. I didn't pester him about written permission nor did I pester him about the fact that our church is attached to a private school that our son attends.

VBS is not school....don't even let anyone insinuate that it is, that word is going to have to change....luckily my church has 2, week long, sport and music "camps", so we don't have to cross that bridge.

Beckster wrote:

sunny beach wrote:

No conduct which is unethical or illegal will be tolerated by the Church.

Isn't banning lawfully carried concealed handguns unethical?

lol...

With a CHL does not fall under the heading of illegal either.
You need to ask them to change the wording.

MeMelYup wrote: With a CHL does not fall under the heading of illegal either.
You need to ask them to change the wording.

Since it says firearm OR illegal weapon, I am going to say they probably weren't even considering someone with a CHL and made a blanket ban on all. I'll just be waiting to see if I can figure out some way to bring it up at some point.

I think the OP was pretty well answered, but I'll say this.

I'm glad my church has a different attitude.

I took my CHL class at my church. We have about 350 members, with a regular attendance on any given Sunday of about 250. I'd say about 10-15% of those are armed.

I'd feel sorry (but only a little) for anyone that makes the mistake of "acting a fool" there.

Lots of advise here. To me this is a simple matter of Christian integrity and honor. You are aware and informed that your employer requires that you do not carry your gun at work. Even if the state of Texas allowed you to YOU KNOW that your employer requires that you dont. If we check the OTHER employee manual Ephesians chapter 6:5-8 we find what we are to do. This supersedes Texas law.

As to what you do when you are not under your employer's direction...that is up to you and what it says in ALL of the manuals.

tex

thetexan wrote:Lots of advise here. To me this is a simple matter of Christian integrity and honor. You are aware and informed that your employer requires that you do not carry your gun at work. Even if the state of Texas allowed you to YOU KNOW that your employer requires that you dont. If we check the OTHER employee manual Ephesians chapter 6:5-8 we find what we are to do. This supersedes Texas law.

As to what you do when you are not under your employer's direction...that is up to you and what it says in ALL of the manuals.

tex

Exactly and I will not carry at the office until such a time as the policy changes. I will look for an opportunity to find out more about why that particular ban was put in place. I truly believe it was a lack of thought...because in the the famous last words of a church, "We've always done it that way." If, after we get a new pastor and I get to know him, I feel comfortable enough to discuss with him, without outing my self, I will do so. Maybe we will get a CHL holder on the personnel committee next rotation...

thetexan wrote:Lots of advise here. To me this is a simple matter of Christian integrity and honor. You are aware and informed that your employer requires that you do not carry your gun at work. Even if the state of Texas allowed you to YOU KNOW that your employer requires that you dont. If we check the OTHER employee manual Ephesians chapter 6:5-8 we find what we are to do. This supersedes Texas law.

As to what you do when you are not under your employer's direction...that is up to you and what it says in ALL of the manuals.

tex

Luke, quoting Jesus Christ, wrote:Luke 22:36
English Standard Version (ESV)
36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Conflicting expectations? I don't know. It's certainly worth exploring if we consider that Jesus tells us to go strapped, and Paul tells us to be obedient in all things to employers who tell us not to go strapped. I think that is one of the reasons we have access to the Holy Spirit as a Helper.......to help us each answer such questions when we dont have all the answers ourselves.

In his Commentary and with regard to Eph 6:5-8, Matthew Henry wrote:5. What they do they must do cheerfully: Doing the will of God from the heart, serving their masters as God wills they should, not grudgingly, nor by constraint, but from a principle of love to them and their concerns. This is doing it with good-will (Eph. 6:7), which will make their service easy to themselves, pleasing to their masters, and acceptable to the Lord Christ. There should be good-will to their masters, good-will to the families they are in; and especially a readiness to do their duty to God. Observe, Service, performed with conscience, and from a regard to God, though it be to unrighteous masters, will be accounted by Christ as service done to himself. 6. Let faithful servants trust God for their wages, while they do their duty in his fear: Knowing that whatsoever good thing (Eph. 6:8), how poor and mean soever it may be, considered in itself,—the same shall he receive of the Lord, that is, by a metonymy, the reward of the same. Though his master on earth should neglect or abuse him, instead of rewarding him, he shall certainly be rewarded by the Lord Christ, whether he be bond or free, whether he be a poor bond-servant or a freeman or master. Christ regards not these differences of men at present; nor will he in the great and final judgment. You think, “A prince, or a magistrate, or a minister, that does his duty here, will be sure to receive his reward in heaven: but what capacity am I, a poor servant, in, of recommending myself to the favour of God.” Why, God will as certainly reward thee for the meanest drudgery that is done from a sense of duty and with an eye to himself. And what can be said more proper either to engage or to encourage servants to their duty?

If I understand this correctly, Henry says these verses are a "metonymy" regarding our duties to our masters/employers....in that we are to perform our duties as to the Lord, rather than as to our employer. In the case of the OP's question, we are talking about employee guidelines, versus employee duties. Maybe that's a legalistic distinction.....I honestly don't know. But you have to ask yourself why a church, particularly one here in Texas where there is a high probability of the church being pretty conservative in its theology and corporate world view, why that church would have a "guideline" forbidding guns. And another, perhaps legalistic distinction, is whether a "guideline" is the same thing as a "rule/law." We even joke sometimes in the popular culture about laws being "more like guidelines, really." If I recall correctly, that line appears in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie. (It goes without saying that I do not take my theology from Pirates of the Caribbean.) In any case, the implication is that a "guideline" is not as hard and fast as a "rule" or "law." The former is a suggestion for how one should behave, the latter are a requirement for how one should behave.

So, does the church have that policy because it's an insurance company requirement to qualify for a lower rate? Does the policy exist because it accurately reflects the will of the ministry council? Does the policy exist because someone who last served on the ministry counsel 20 years ago insisted on it back then, and it has never been changed because nobody thought to? Does it exist because that is in fact the leadership's understanding of Christianity? (I find that one difficult to believe, since the policy specifically does not exclude other weapons which are legal. It only excludes "firearms" and "illegal weapons."

It's a tricky question, and I am happy I don't have to deal with it. I would not willingly work for a church which had such a view of the world. At my church, most of the employees work from home anyway, and only come to the church for meetings or to use equipment like copiers, etc. There is no way that a church could regulate, morally or legally, your behavior within the confines of your home. There is of course an expectancy of moral behavior, but they couldn't fire you for wearing a gun inside your own home during business hours. Well, to restate that more accurately.....they could fire you for that, but no rational person would have an expectation of controlling what you wear while your in your own home, even if you are on the company clock. In any case, I am part of the church's worship team, and I am the worship leader for one of our ministries. I've never been shown such a policy, and I wear a gun there all the time....including when I'm on stage.