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Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:40 pm
by ELB
Charles L. Cotton wrote: ... Only in recent years have larger cities started to charge for ambulance service and I think that's wrong. I pay for that service in advance when I pay my taxes.
Chas.
Ok this is a rabbit trail, but............mmmmm, I think you are behind the times here ... I am just a country medical responder, but from my exposure to EMS I would bet that darn near all, if not all cities and towns of any size that have a paid emergency (911) ambulance service not only route tax money to it, but charge for each transport as well. Insurance and Medicare often cover it, or most of it, for those who have it. For those that can't pay, the government eventually eats the cost and tries make it up elsewhere. Even if the ambulance is run by a paid fire department, which probably doesn't charge for fire runs, it will almost certainly charge for an ambulance run. And ambulance runs will be the large majority of the fire department's runs.
Even here in rural Guadalupe County, the county is covered by contract out of Schertz for ambulance service. Schertz has its own ambulance service that services its area, then subcontracts most of the rest of the county to Seguin (city) Fire Department (the area closest to New Braunfels and San Marcos are covered by others). When a county resident calls, volunteer fire department medical responders usually get there first, followed by the Seguin FD Ambulance. The volunteer medical responders are free (at least to the patient, the responders pay for their own gas), but the Seguin FD will send a bill if the patient goes for ride to the hospital. It well be several hundred dollars at a minimum.
The number of ambulance calls has skyrocketed in the last decade or two, and it costs $$$$ to have paramedic-level service to everyone. For a tax-payer funded service the $$ come from taxes or directly billing patients/insurance, and for governments have seen fit to try to pay for all kinds of other stuff too, so despite taxes jumping way up, there's not enough $$ allocated to the ambulance service to keep ti going unless they get $$ from the patient/insurance.
I have no doubt there are many people taken to the hospital now by ambulance that would have not gone, or not gone by ambulance, in the past. Part of this is recognition of certain conditions that were not recognized in the past, but a lot of it has to do with "being safe;" also it has been my experience that older folks in their 80s are much more reluctant to go to the ER than their kids in their 50s and younger, and there are lot more of the younger ones. Medical people are no doubt influenced by wanting to "be safe" -- and not sued -- so off goes the patient to the ER, even for things that seem much less life-threatening than annoying.
But I am sure Obamacare will fix all this.
Trying to tie it to the previous posts (which I am not sure exactly which side you are coming down on about that sailing family) but if there were as many cross-atlantic sailors getting into, or thinking they are getting into trouble as there are calling 911 for an ambulance, you would see the Coasties charging. I suspect handling small boat distress calls close to shore eats up a significant portion of CG time as it is.
TANSTAAFL, even if you already paid taxes...

Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:33 pm
by BigGuy
IANAL. I am a sailor. Mr Cotten is correct in his assertion that comparing this to ambulance runs is an apple to oranges comparison. There has been a long, global tradition of rendering aid to those in peril on the seas. This tradition pre-dates written history.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't feel qualified to argue a position on this from a legal stance. As a sailor and a human, I have no problem flatly stating there is a moral obligation.
From THE DUTY TO RENDER ASSISTANCE IN THE SATELLITE AGE
The moral obligation for one mariner to assist another in peril on
the seas is an ancient and “practical response to the dangers of the
high seas.”9 This obligation entered U.S. law by way of the Convention
for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law Respecting Assistance
and Salvage at Sea.10
As to whether the family acted irresponsibly, as a sailor I don't think so. Again. there has been a long tradition of individuals and families making oceanic voyages, going back at least as far as Joshua Slocum. (Just check out a couple of Cruising World magazines) Most of the complaints I've heard so far seem to come from people about as familiar with sailing as the average anti is about firearms. Medical emergencies at sea make great press, but are actually a pretty small percentage of the dangers a sailor faces. In my book, the heart attack victim who has never exercised, and has spent his entire adult life with a high intake of salt and fat is far more irresponsible than this family.
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:38 pm
by mamabearCali
Hey hey! The jury is out on salt and fat! They are both needed and in traditional food (stuff you make in your kitchen) are not usually harmful at all.
Now if your diet is MCD french fries and consistent cheeseburgers then yeah.....that is lethal.
All things in moderation (unless of course you have a medical condition). I can't eat peppers in moderation or risk a asthma attack (which the EPA made my OTC inhaler unavailible so I am SOL). I vote yes on broccoli with butter and a barbeque chicken for dinner on Monday, and Meatballs with pasta with a spinich vinagrette salad on Tuesday!
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:48 pm
by puma guy
Redneck_Buddha wrote:VMI77 wrote:It's the progressive way. A million little busy bodies are a million little spies. After all, you can't spell progressive without the "SS."
Ooooohhhh I'm gonna have to borrow that!
Me too!
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:50 pm
by BigGuy
mamabearCali wrote:Hey hey! The jury is out on salt and fat! They are both needed and in traditional food (stuff you make in your kitchen) are not usually harmful at all.
Now if your diet is MCD french fries and consistent cheeseburgers then yeah.....that is lethal.
All things in moderation (unless of course you have a medical condition). I can't eat peppers in moderation or risk a asthma attack (which the EPA made my OTC inhaler unavailible so I am SOL). I vote yes on broccoli with butter and a barbeque chicken for dinner on Monday, and Meatballs with pasta with a spinich vinagrette salad on Tuesday!
Point taken. I intended to reference an individual who was irresponsible about their health, then put a burden on the health system because of their bad choices.
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:57 pm
by rotor
BigGuy wrote:IANAL. I am a sailor. Mr Cotten is correct in his assertion that comparing this to ambulance runs is an apple to oranges comparison. There has been a long, global tradition of rendering aid to those in peril on the seas. This tradition pre-dates written history.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't feel qualified to argue a position on this from a legal stance. As a sailor and a human, I have no problem flatly stating there is a moral obligation.
From THE DUTY TO RENDER ASSISTANCE IN THE SATELLITE AGE
The moral obligation for one mariner to assist another in peril on
the seas is an ancient and “practical response to the dangers of the
high seas.”9 This obligation entered U.S. law by way of the Convention
for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law Respecting Assistance
and Salvage at Sea.10
As to whether the family acted irresponsibly, as a sailor I don't think so. Again. there has been a long tradition of individuals and families making oceanic voyages, going back at least as far as Joshua Slocum. (Just check out a couple of Cruising World magazines) Most of the complaints I've heard so far seem to come from people about as familiar with sailing as the average anti is about firearms. Medical emergencies at sea make great press, but are actually a pretty small percentage of the dangers a sailor faces. In my book, the heart attack victim who has never exercised, and has spent his entire adult life with a high intake of salt and fat is far more irresponsible than this family.
I again have no problem with the family taking their children out to sea with them. True, there is a tradition being followed here but I don't think that I have a responsibility to pay for the expense of a sea rescue of this child. I think the tradition should be followed as they called for help. Where do we send the bill? Oh, it is free. A search and rescue at sea most cost hundreds of thousands and it should be free? People stuck on mountains rescued by government helicopters get a bill for the rescue but at sea it is free. People that travel south of the border that want to make sure they get good medical care in case of illness buy private insurance and they get a plane that picks them up and flies them to a good U.S. hospital. You don't buy the insurance and you take your chances. But on the sea the U.S. taxpayer should pick up the bill. No, I don't think that is an expense that I should be stuck with. I am glad the child is safe. I have no problem with the family taking their children with them. For Charles though, what's different about this then looking for the Kennedy boy after his plane crash. Because the Kennedy's are rich?
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:04 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
rotor wrote:As to whether the family acted irresponsibly, as a sailor I don't think so. Again. there has been a long tradition of individuals and families making oceanic voyages, going back at least as far as Joshua Slocum. (Just check out a couple of Cruising World magazines) Most of the complaints I've heard so far seem to come from people about as familiar with sailing as the average anti is about firearms. Medical emergencies at sea make great press, but are actually a pretty small percentage of the dangers a sailor faces. In my book, the heart attack victim who has never exercised, and has spent his entire adult life with a high intake of salt and fat is far more irresponsible than this family.
rotor wrote:I again have no problem with the family taking their children out to sea with them. True, there is a tradition being followed here but I don't think that I have a responsibility to pay for the expense of a sea rescue of this child. I think the tradition should be followed as they called for help. Where do we send the bill? Oh, it is free. A search and rescue at sea most cost hundreds of thousands and it should be free? People stuck on mountains rescued by government helicopters get a bill for the rescue but at sea it is free. People that travel south of the border that want to make sure they get good medical care in case of illness buy private insurance and they get a plane that picks them up and flies them to a good U.S. hospital. You don't buy the insurance and you take your chances. But on the sea the U.S. taxpayer should pick up the bill. No, I don't think that is an expense that I should be stuck with. I am glad the child is safe. I have no problem with the family taking their children with them.
Thankfully, you don't get to rewrite history, ignore long-standing traditions, or alter the mission of the U.S. Coast Guard or U.S. Navy.
rotor wrote:For Charles though, what's different about this then looking for the Kennedy boy after his plane crash. Because the Kennedy's are rich?
The child and his family are alive and the rescue was to preserve life. Kennedy, his wife and sister-in-law were dead.
Chas.
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:35 pm
by philip964
From what I heard the toddler had just recovered a week before from a serious illness requiring hospitalization. These are not the brightest bulbs in the room.
Sailing across the Pacific in a 35 foot boat is many people's dream. I had an acquaintance who quit his good job in Denver, sold his beautiful house in Evergreen and moved to San Diego bought a sail boat, learned how to sail, navigate and set sail for Australia with his wife and six year old son. They made it. Flew back, divorced and he later took his life. The trip was not as much fun as they thought. Not a lot of chances to change your mind when you are between Tahiti and New Zealand. At one point a whale attempted to sink their boat. Other friends on long sailing trips have been becalmed for a two weeks. You have a lot of time to think.
When I was in Yosemite, we stayed near the helicopter landing area. It was busy all weekend bringing in these long baskets hung from a cable below the helicopter. When the basket touched ground, not once did the EMT's rush to get the basket to the ambulance.
I understand the forest service will not rescue you, if you call on your cell phone and say you are hiking and are tired and its getting dark, so come rescue me.
We pay taxes to rescue people at sea. We pay taxes to put out house fires. We pay taxes to bring bodies out from the bottom of cliffs. If the government wants to create a system that, if you pay no taxes, until you need something from the government and then pay a large fee. I'm all for it.
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:41 pm
by C-dub
For some folks, the idea of minding one's own business flew out the proverbial liberal window a long time ago.
There was a local city up here in the DFW area, Bedford I think, that either tried to pass or passed something where they began sending the fire and ambulance bills to people they responded to on the roadways that were not Bedford residents. The thought being that the Bedford residents have paid for that service, but that out of towner has not.
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:44 pm
by SewTexas
philip964 wrote:From what I heard the toddler had just recovered a week before from a serious illness requiring hospitalization. These are not the brightest bulbs in the room.
Sailing across the Pacific in a 35 foot boat is many people's dream. I had an acquaintance who quit his good job in Denver, sold his beautiful house in Evergreen and moved to San Diego bought a sail boat, learned how to sail, navigate and set sail for Australia with his wife and six year old son. They made it. Flew back, divorced and he later took his life. The trip was not as much fun as they thought. Not a lot of chances to change your mind when you are between Tahiti and New Zealand. At one point a whale attempted to sink their boat. Other friends on long sailing trips have been becalmed for a two weeks. You have a lot of time to think.
(snip)
We pay taxes to rescue people at sea. We pay taxes to put out house fires. We pay taxes to bring bodies out from the bottom of cliffs. If the government wants to create a system that, if you pay no taxes, until you need something from the government and then pay a large fee. I'm all for it.
no, she had salmonella food poisoning and had been given clearance by a doctor from what I read. I don't see how that's going to make her ill several weeks later.
the parents had done long voyages before the kids had come along and the kids had done longish voyages, just nothing like this....
however, into the the trip the mom admitted they were idiots for trying it.
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:30 pm
by mamabearCali
SewTexas wrote:philip964 wrote:From what I heard the toddler had just recovered a week before from a serious illness requiring hospitalization. These are not the brightest bulbs in the room.
Sailing across the Pacific in a 35 foot boat is many people's dream. I had an acquaintance who quit his good job in Denver, sold his beautiful house in Evergreen and moved to San Diego bought a sail boat, learned how to sail, navigate and set sail for Australia with his wife and six year old son. They made it. Flew back, divorced and he later took his life. The trip was not as much fun as they thought. Not a lot of chances to change your mind when you are between Tahiti and New Zealand. At one point a whale attempted to sink their boat. Other friends on long sailing trips have been becalmed for a two weeks. You have a lot of time to think.
(snip)
We pay taxes to rescue people at sea. We pay taxes to put out house fires. We pay taxes to bring bodies out from the bottom of cliffs. If the government wants to create a system that, if you pay no taxes, until you need something from the government and then pay a large fee. I'm all for it.
no, she had salmonella food poisoning and had been given clearance by a doctor from what I read. I don't see how that's going to make her ill several weeks later.
the parents had done long voyages before the kids had come along and the kids had done longish voyages, just nothing like this....
however, into the the trip the mom admitted they were idiots for trying it.
You live and you learn. If it was easy everyone would do it. Oh well. Glad everyone is ok.
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:03 pm
by WildBill
BigGuy wrote:IANAL. I am a sailor. Mr Cotten is correct in his assertion that comparing this to ambulance runs is an apple to oranges comparison. There has been a long, global tradition of rendering aid to those in peril on the seas. This tradition pre-dates written history.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, so I don't feel qualified to argue a position on this from a legal stance. As a sailor and a human, I have no problem flatly stating there is a moral obligation.
From THE DUTY TO RENDER ASSISTANCE IN THE SATELLITE AGE
The moral obligation for one mariner to assist another in peril on
the seas is an ancient and “practical response to the dangers of the
high seas.”9 This obligation entered U.S. law by way of the Convention
for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law Respecting Assistance
and Salvage at Sea.10
As to whether the family acted irresponsibly, as a sailor I don't think so. Again. there has been a long tradition of individuals and families making oceanic voyages, going back at least as far as Joshua Slocum. (Just check out a couple of Cruising World magazines) Most of the complaints I've heard so far seem to come from people about as familiar with sailing as the average anti is about firearms. Medical emergencies at sea make great press, but are actually a pretty small percentage of the dangers a sailor faces. In my book, the heart attack victim who has never exercised, and has spent his entire adult life with a high intake of salt and fat is far more irresponsible than this family.
Morals, tradition and honor transcend money.

Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:44 pm
by FML
Would there have been a rescue if people minded their own business?
Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:00 pm
by C-dub
FML wrote:Would there have been a rescue if people minded their own business?
Oh, there you go getting all existential on us.

Re: What happened to minding one's own business?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:45 pm
by Dragonfighter
philip964 wrote:From what I heard the toddler had just recovered a week before from a serious illness requiring hospitalization. These are not the brightest bulbs in the room.
<SNIP>
Without a great amount of detail, I will say from personal experience that when a member of your family is close to death, the importance of building memories goes through the roof while the importance of being "safe" diminishes accordingly. I don't think it is ours to judge their intelligence or motives.
I am glad the little girl is safe, I am glad the Coasties were there to rescue her and I am glad to support them with my tax dollars.