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Re: Chl carry
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:11 pm
by BigBangSmallBucks
Pawpaw wrote:Abraham wrote:We're not in WW11 Germany where a Nazi could arrogantly demand of any citizen: "Your papers schweinhund!"
You can walk around (not carrying) without I.D. - It's not against the law.
If an LEO were to arrest you for not carrying an I.D., (again, assuming you're not carrying a gun) here in the U.S., it would make a very interesting legal situation...
World War Eleven??? Looks like I need to do a lot of catching up on my history!!!
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:31 pm
by denwego
tomdavis wrote:In the City of Houston, and perhaps elsewhere, if an HPD officer asks for ID and you do not produce it then you can be arrested and taken in. Does anyone know if that is a City ordinance or statewide? I will ask tomorrow and share what that officer says.
Not quite, at least when not driving or carrying a handgun. The relevant code is:
Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:
(1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).
(d) If it is shown on the trial of an offense under this section that the defendant was a fugitive from justice at the time of the offense, the offense is:
(1) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or
(2) a Class A misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).
(e) If conduct that constitutes an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under Section 106.07, Alcoholic Beverage Code, the actor may be prosecuted only under Section 106.07.
You have to be arrested and not merely detained, and thereupon you have to give your name, address, and DOB. Orally informing upon demand is sufficient. There's no requirement to carry any form of printed identification as you walk down the street. In Dutton v. Hayes-Pupko (2008) the Texas Court of Appeals for the 3rd District in Austin ruled in 2008 that arresting someone for a failure to identify while merely being detained and not under arrest is unlawful on its face AND the officer doesn't have qualified immunity for that action, meaning they're liable for damages and opening up their department/city for the same... that's a big payday for anyone who pursues it in court.
Of course, driving on a public road, or carrying a handgun under a CHL, or doing anything else which requires a license from the state is different. It's just personally infuriating in other situations.
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:41 pm
by srothstein
Denwego has it exactly correct. And I would be very surprised if any Houston PD officers were not fully aware of this. A few years back I was told a story that I believe but might be more apocryphal than true.
Two officers were on patrol in one of the upper class neighborhoods in Houston. They got a call for an attempted burglary that had just happened with a young African-American male wearing a t-shirt and blue jeans running from the scene. There was a few more details in the description also, like height and weight. The were checking the neighborhood and saw an older African-American male wearing a jogging suit out for a jog. They stopped him and demanded his ID, threatening to arrest him if he did not identify himself. They claimed that they thought he might have been the burglar. They spent a few hours the next morning explaining to the Chief (through IA) why they had threatened a federal judge with arrest for something that was not a crime.
If I heard that one in the Austin area, I have to assume all of Houston PD would have heard it too.
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:55 am
by stash
A couple weeks ago I applied for enrollment with the VA. The lady who handled me advised which Primary photo ID's they would accept for enrollment. Guess what - one was the TXCHL. She indicated it could be used as the primary with a non-photo ID as the secondary. I did not use mine but I thought it was interesting that a federal agency wound accept our CHL.
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm
by JKTex
westex1948 wrote:GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is
carrying a handgun on or about the license holder’s person when a magistrate or
a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification,
the license
holder shall display both the license holder’s driver’s license or identification
certificate issued by the department and the license holder’s handgun license.
I Think that means you have to have
DL or State issued ID along with CHL
This, still. Houston is no different as they nor any other municipality, county etc. can make any other law or ordinance.
And as someone else said, as of (3 years ago?) if you're carrying and asked for ID you must still present DL or other State ID, along with your CHL however not doing so no longer has any penalty. That change was shoved through in sunset legislation in '11 I think it was. If I recall, the idea was to level the playing field since drivers with no CHL are not compelled to disclose they have a handgun with them in the car (which is legal), yet CHL holders were by way of presenting both CHL and DL. In most cases it really shouldn't matter and in some, you may want to make sure an officer knows, but that's your call. It's still a requirement, but there is no penalty whatsoever.
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:08 am
by ldj1002
Do other states share CHL info. with TX. IE a TX resident with a TX DL and has a non resident CHL from another state, Does TX
LEO have that info?
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:10 pm
by poppo
Keith B wrote:CHL is not a valid ID in Texas.
Required Identification for Voting in Person
Here is a list of the acceptable forms of photo ID:
•Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS)
•Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS
•Texas personal identification card issued by DPS
•Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS
•United States military identification card containing the person’s photograph
•United States citizenship certificate containing the person’s photograph
•United States passport
http://votetexas.gov/register-to-vote/need-id/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:13 pm
by Keith B
poppo wrote:Keith B wrote:CHL is not a valid ID in Texas.
Required Identification for Voting in Person
Here is a list of the acceptable forms of photo ID:
•Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS)
•Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS
•Texas personal identification card issued by DPS
•Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS
•United States military identification card containing the person’s photograph
•United States citizenship certificate containing the person’s photograph
•United States passport
http://votetexas.gov/register-to-vote/need-id/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It may be accepted for voting, but not a primary ID per DPS
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/driverlice ... ements.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:46 pm
by tacticool
ldj1002 wrote:Do other states share CHL info. with TX. IE a TX resident with a TX DL and has a non resident CHL from another state, Does TX
LEO have that info?
It depends on the state. Some have confidentiality laws they actually enforce.
Re: Chl carry --- for Keith
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:41 pm
by edorgon
Keith,
I found your statement: "CHL is not a valid ID in Texas. It is only considered a valid secondary method of identification." very interesting and informative.
Just last week I traveled from Dulles IAP to ABIA. I showed the TSA agent at Dulles my CHL as ID. He seemed a bit confused and when I said, oh, thats my CHL I'll give you my DL, he said, no, this is good. And passed me through. Similar has happened at Detroit=Wayne, Denver, and even NY JFK. But at ABIA if I do it, they say, not valid. Need your DL.
Strange.
Re: Chl carry --- for Keith
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:09 pm
by Keith B
edorgon wrote:Keith,
I found your statement: "CHL is not a valid ID in Texas. It is only considered a valid secondary method of identification." very interesting and informative.
Just last week I traveled from Dulles IAP to ABIA. I showed the TSA agent at Dulles my CHL as ID. He seemed a bit confused and when I said, oh, thats my CHL I'll give you my DL, he said, no, this is good. And passed me through. Similar has happened at Detroit=Wayne, Denver, and even NY JFK. But at ABIA if I do it, they say, not valid. Need your DL.
Strange.
Legal as an ID and being accepted by an individual are two different things. Every agency will have different guidelines on what they will accept and some individuals may just be looking for a state issued document with a photo on it. I have seen people accept a credit card as proof of identification because it had the name and the photo of the individual on it.
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:13 pm
by Unicorn Rancher
Please tell me I'm not the only one who was looking up IATA and ICAO codes to see what exotic land was home to ABIA.
Re: Chl carry
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:19 pm
by carlson1
Unicorn Rancher wrote:Please tell me I'm not the only one who was looking up IATA and ICAO codes to see what exotic land was home to ABIA.
Your not.
Re: Chl carry --- for Keith
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:28 pm
by Pawpaw
edorgon wrote:Keith,
I found your statement: "CHL is not a valid ID in Texas. It is only considered a valid secondary method of identification." very interesting and informative.
Just last week I traveled from Dulles IAP to ABIA. I showed the TSA agent at Dulles my CHL as ID. He seemed a bit confused and when I said, oh, thats my CHL I'll give you my DL, he said, no, this is good. And passed me through. Similar has happened at Detroit=Wayne, Denver, and even NY JFK. But at ABIA if I do it, they say, not valid. Need your DL.
Strange.
Stuff like that has been posted on here many times. My conclusion is the only thing TSA is good at is being inconsistent.
Re: Chl carry --- for Keith
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:41 pm
by Jumping Frog
Pawpaw wrote:My conclusion is the only thing TSA is good at is being inconsistent.
Being arbitrary and capricious is part of properly holding the population firmly planted under it's bureaucratic thumb. Part of the same strategy that seeks to find ways to make all law-abiding citizens vulnerable to felony charges to exert control.
We have become a banana republic.