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Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:38 am
by VMI77
Texguy wrote:I've recently completely a CHL class and received my CHL. Now that I am carrying, I think about how I would use this new 'right' and I realize that my training didn't cover that in sufficient depth. Some situations are obvious (my life in immediate danger...any life in immediate danger..intruder), some are not (store I'm in is getting robbed...mugger attack on person in my general area...someone fleeing the scene after a criminal act). Do you only draw if you intend to fire? or is there ever a situation where you draw with no intent to fire?
Where does someone go to get answers to this?
I highly recommend taking an advanced pistol class.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:36 pm
by cb1000rider
Keith B wrote:
My personal rule is I will not be drawing my weapon unless I feel I am going to have to use it. Things may change after I do to where I won't have to, but I will be to the point I think there is no other option when I draw.
I disagree with Keith on this. I'd draw with no intent to use it, simply to draw it as a deterrent from further escalation. I'm fully aware that drawing could result in additional escalation. I'm not saying that Keith is wrong, I'm just saying that I'd choose a different path.
I do disagree with those that say if drawn, it gets fired (not what Keith said)... I think that you've got a choice there and it's not always necessary, even if justified.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:38 pm
by oohrah
to do that would be considered brandishing or threatening and you would be on the wrong side of the lawsuit.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:56 pm
by cb1000rider
oohrah wrote:to do that would be considered brandishing or threatening and you would be on the wrong side of the lawsuit.
That assumes zero justification. I didn't indicate that I'd do so because I don't like how someone approaches.
Assume the situation was "justified". I'll be called an idiot, but in the case of a property robbery, I'd pull, but not I'd not shoot. Cost of shooting is just too high. Easier to let the property go. So why pull to begin with? Good question... May dissuade some bad guys. Maybe a bad call. Maybe I'm just legally paranoid.
And the cost of a threatening lawsuit is far less than what it'd cost to go through a grand jury.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:56 pm
by Keith B
cb1000rider wrote:Keith B wrote:
My personal rule is I will not be drawing my weapon unless I feel I am going to have to use it. Things may change after I do to where I won't have to, but I will be to the point I think there is no other option when I draw.
I disagree with Keith on this. I'd draw with no intent to use it, simply to draw it as a deterrent from further escalation. I'm fully aware that drawing could result in additional escalation. I'm not saying that Keith is wrong, I'm just saying that I'd choose a different path.
I do disagree with those that say if drawn, it gets fired (not what Keith said)... I think that you've got a choice there and it's not always necessary, even if justified.
I will never draw as a deterrent alone. If I am going to draw, it is because I feel it is escalating to the point I will have to use it. If in the process the situation deescalates, then so be it. My intent will never be to 'show' my gun to get them to stop; that's a good way to get shot because you think it will be enough to scare them off and you aren't ready to go to the next level.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:01 pm
by Keith B
oohrah wrote:to do that would be considered brandishing or threatening and you would be on the wrong side of the lawsuit.
Actually, it's not. TC 9.04 says:
Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
There is no such thing as 'brandishing' in Texas. If use of force is justified then the production of a weapon to defend yourself is justified. It's just not what I will be doing (my personal guidelines).
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:36 am
by CainA
SQLGeek wrote:There is a really great post on another forum that talks about this in a longer conversation about self defense. It's titled "Street Robberies And You". A Google search will lead you to it.
I think it, in my layman's opinion, it should be required reading for all new CHL holders. There is some salty language in the post if that bothers you but it's worth the read.
I've made my decision on when I will be drawing. It's personal so it doesn't make as much sense to share but it will happen when my threshold has been crossed.
If your Google search leads you to a site that starts with "AR", then you should read all 33 pages, provided you can handle colorful language. There is some good info. there.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:27 am
by MechAg94
My main issues with drawing without the intent to shoot is that you might set yourself up as "knowing" that there was not sufficient justification to shoot. I was thinking it might slow your reaction time down if the situation changes, but not necessarily.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:30 am
by CainA
MechAg94 wrote:My main issues with drawing without the intent to shoot is that you might set yourself up as "knowing" that there was not sufficient justification to shoot. I was thinking it might slow your reaction time down if the situation changes, but not necessarily.
True. Then you might find yourself in a "choke" situation, which could prove deadly.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:38 pm
by cb1000rider
MechAg94 wrote:My main issues with drawing without the intent to shoot is that you might set yourself up as "knowing" that there was not sufficient justification to shoot. I was thinking it might slow your reaction time down if the situation changes, but not necessarily.
I don't understand. If you're not justified, why would you draw? You can be perfectly justified and choose not to pull the trigger.
It's a nasty and litigious society out there, that's all.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:33 am
by TomsTXCHL
SQLGeek wrote:There is a really great post on another forum that talks about this in a longer conversation about self defense. It's titled "Street Robberies And You". A Google search will lead you to it.
I think it, in my layman's opinion, it should be required reading for all new CHL holders. There is some salty language in the post if that bothers you but it's worth the read.
More accurately "Street Robberies And You - The Basics" Post #1 contains the best, most practical advice I've ever seen anywhere in such capsule form. I have printed it-out and will be insisting that my wife read it.
That posting (by a street-wise LEO) is a couple years old now but thanks SQLGeek for mentioning it here.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:51 am
by Beiruty
I have heard a money clip with some $20 in small bills and unwanted business cards is good thing to have on your for tactical purposes.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:52 am
by CainA
Thank you SQLGeek for posting.
On page 10 there is a link to a Youtube video(you are going to have to seek it out I am not posting a direct link to it here) that is pretty horrific. It is unbelievable that people actually live this way. It is very very offensive, so you are warned.
On page 15 there is a link to a MS Word version of the original post, not that it's that difficult to copy and paste it into Word yourself, but it is there.
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:04 pm
by TomsTXCHL
CainA wrote:On page 10 there is a link to a Youtube video(you are going to have to seek it out I am not posting a direct link to it here) that is pretty horrific. It is unbelievable that people actually live this way. It is very very offensive, so you are warned.
Warned, but not advised--you did not say what the video is about???
Re: When to draw and when not to draw
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:13 pm
by CainA
TomsTXCHL wrote:CainA wrote:On page 10 there is a link to a Youtube video(you are going to have to seek it out I am not posting a direct link to it here) that is pretty horrific. It is unbelievable that people actually live this way. It is very very offensive, so you are warned.
Warned, but not advised--you did not say what the video is about???
It's about how the thugs live, think, act, etc. Its venue is West Palm Beach, FL. and contains violence, vulgar language, etc. It's bad.