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Aren't lots of hospitals supported by hospital districts? Interesting, these conundrums.

As usual, none of the details matter. The way it is being presented in print and discussed on the local radio talk in Austin characterizes this as an incident waiting to happen. What they fail (intentionally) to take into account is the fact that it only applies to CHL/LTC holders, who are not criminals, not negligent, not stupid, so they would not carry into any situation where they would be putting innocent patients and staff in danger by carrying. One discussion I heard on radio presented OC as anyone being able to now carry into these facilities, and other government buildings.

anomie wrote:

Sec. 241.004. EXEMPTIONS. This chapter does not apply to a facility:

(1) licensed under Chapter 242 or 577;

(2) maintained or operated by the federal government or an agency of the federal government; or

(3) maintained or operated by this state or an agency of this state.

So 241 itself says 241 doesn't apply to state agencies.

This is getting into some complex legal questions better answered by an attorney, but I suppose that if a hospital were maintained or operated, not simply owned (as is often the case), by the state or a state agency and if the hospital were not a teaching hospital, it could not legally be posted 30.06. I doubt there are many hospitals that fall under that category, but there might be a few.

Oldgringo wrote:Who would want to carry in a state mental hospital? Even the security people don't carry in either the state hospital or the penitentiaries here. This falls under the heading of: Good Grief!

I carry everywhere it is legal to do so. So if I had a need to carry there, I would.

Solaris wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:Who would want to carry in a state mental hospital? Even the security people don't carry in either the state hospital or the penitentiaries here. This falls under the heading of: Good Grief!

I carry everywhere it is legal to do so. So if I had a need to carry there, I would.

"need"

Solaris wrote:I carry everywhere it is legal to do so. So if I had a need to carry there, I would.

I'm not going to carry into somewhere the cops are checking their weapons to avoid the possibility of a patient getting their hands on one, even if it's legal.

Bladed wrote:This is getting into some complex legal questions better answered by an attorney

True - and I'm not a lawyer and anything I type here could be wildly wrong

The reason I ended up finding that is that I can't find anywhere in 552 that even uses the word 'license', so I went looking through 241 again. And it's sort of moot for me anyway because of the above 'not going to carry into somewhere the cops are checking their weapons to avoid the possibility of a patient getting their hands on one'.

I'm going to go ahead and promise that I will never OC in a state mental hospital. However, I would conceal 2-3 pistols and a few spare mags due to the local fauna.

anomie wrote:

Solaris wrote:I carry everywhere it is legal to do so. So if I had a need to carry there, I would.

I'm not going to carry into somewhere the cops are checking their weapons to avoid the possibility of a patient getting their hands on one, even if it's legal.

Bladed wrote:This is getting into some complex legal questions better answered by an attorney

True - and I'm not a lawyer and anything I type here could be wildly wrong

The reason I ended up finding that is that I can't find anywhere in 552 that even uses the word 'license', so I went looking through 241 again. And it's sort of moot for me anyway because of the above 'not going to carry into somewhere the cops are checking their weapons to avoid the possibility of a patient getting their hands on one'.

Here is a post on this issue from our resident expert srothstein http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 2&p=545878

Bottom line, a 51% sign on a hospital is not the same as a 51% sign on a bar. 51% bars are the only restriction TABC for concealed carry, not hospitals.

Tom Benning of The Dallas Morning News updated his article on this issue, to better explain the law: http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/ ... guns.html/

Benning is one of the few reporters you can typically count on to get the facts straight even if means correcting himself. This article now does an excellent job of explaining the issue.

anomie wrote:

Solaris wrote:I carry everywhere it is legal to do so. So if I had a need to carry there, I would.

I'm not going to carry into somewhere the cops are checking their weapons to avoid the possibility of a patient getting their hands on one, even if it's legal.

You make your choice, I make mine.

anomie wrote:There's an article on the Austin American statesman alleging that state mental hospitals can't prohibit carry because they can't post 30.06 or 30.07 signs

I look at the statutes and see something about hospitals licensed under health and safety code 241 having a requirement to put up a 51%-without-the-51 sign, which is not a 30.06/07 sign.

However, there's a lot of effective date stuff and I'm not sure if I'm parsing everything correctly.

Is this a case of, they could prohibit carry if they'd put up 51-without-the-51 signs - or are they really unable to prohibit carry by license holders?

According to my dad who works at a mental health facility, Chapter 448 Texas Department of Mental Health supplies the code that prohibits carrying of firearms.

Subchapter E - RULE §448.505

<snip...> (h) The facility shall prohibit firearms and other weapons, alcohol, illegal drugs, illegal activities, and violence on the program site or at or during the course of any program activity, except as provided for in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection. The facility shall be responsible for any noncompliance with this subsection.
(1) The facility may allow a clergy member to bring four ounces or less of alcohol on site or to a program activity for purposes of presiding over a religious or spiritual rite, as long as the alcohol remains in the possession, custody, or control of the presiding clergy member at all times while on the program site or at the program activity, is not distributed, and is consumed only by the presiding clergy member, if at all.
(2) The facility shall inform any clergy member bringing alcohol on site or to a program activity under paragraph (1) of this subsection of the requirements of this subsection. The facility shall create and maintain documentation, which shall be available to staff of the Department of State Health Services upon request, reflecting each date and time when alcohol is permitted to be brought onto the program site or to a program activity pursuant to this subsection. The documentation shall include the name, address, and title of the clergy member, and shall document staff verification that the clergy member was self-identified as such, that alcohol was brought on site or to a program activity and that it was thereafter either removed from the site or program activity, or represented by the presiding clergy member to have been personally consumed. <...snip>

TexasTornado wrote:
According to my dad who works at a mental health facility, Chapter 448 Texas Department of Mental Health supplies the code that prohibits carrying of firearms.

Subchapter E - RULE §448.505

<snip...> (h) The facility shall prohibit firearms and other weapons, alcohol, illegal drugs, illegal activities, and violence on the program site or at or during the course of any program activity, except as provided for in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection. The facility shall be responsible for any noncompliance with this subsection.
(1) The facility may allow a clergy member to bring four ounces or less of alcohol on site or to a program activity for purposes of presiding over a religious or spiritual rite, as long as the alcohol remains in the possession, custody, or control of the presiding clergy member at all times while on the program site or at the program activity, is not distributed, and is consumed only by the presiding clergy member, if at all.
(2) The facility shall inform any clergy member bringing alcohol on site or to a program activity under paragraph (1) of this subsection of the requirements of this subsection. The facility shall create and maintain documentation, which shall be available to staff of the Department of State Health Services upon request, reflecting each date and time when alcohol is permitted to be brought onto the program site or to a program activity pursuant to this subsection. The documentation shall include the name, address, and title of the clergy member, and shall document staff verification that the clergy member was self-identified as such, that alcohol was brought on site or to a program activity and that it was thereafter either removed from the site or program activity, or represented by the presiding clergy member to have been personally consumed. <...snip>

That rule is overridden due to the fact they would have to prosecute you under 46.03, and that allows concealed carriers to carry in a hospital unless posted 30.06/30.07. And, since it's a state facility, then they can't post 30.06/30.07.

Keith B wrote:

TexasTornado wrote:
According to my dad who works at a mental health facility, Chapter 448 Texas Department of Mental Health supplies the code that prohibits carrying of firearms.

Subchapter E - RULE §448.505

<snip...> (h) The facility shall prohibit firearms and other weapons, alcohol, illegal drugs, illegal activities, and violence on the program site or at or during the course of any program activity, except as provided for in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection. The facility shall be responsible for any noncompliance with this subsection.
(1) The facility may allow a clergy member to bring four ounces or less of alcohol on site or to a program activity for purposes of presiding over a religious or spiritual rite, as long as the alcohol remains in the possession, custody, or control of the presiding clergy member at all times while on the program site or at the program activity, is not distributed, and is consumed only by the presiding clergy member, if at all.
(2) The facility shall inform any clergy member bringing alcohol on site or to a program activity under paragraph (1) of this subsection of the requirements of this subsection. The facility shall create and maintain documentation, which shall be available to staff of the Department of State Health Services upon request, reflecting each date and time when alcohol is permitted to be brought onto the program site or to a program activity pursuant to this subsection. The documentation shall include the name, address, and title of the clergy member, and shall document staff verification that the clergy member was self-identified as such, that alcohol was brought on site or to a program activity and that it was thereafter either removed from the site or program activity, or represented by the presiding clergy member to have been personally consumed. <...snip>

That rule is overridden due to the fact they would have to prosecute you under 46.03, and that allows concealed carriers to carry in a hospital unless posted 30.06/30.07. And, since it's a state facility, then they can't post 30.06/30.07.

Does it also override if it is a privately owned behavioral health center and not a hospital?

TexasTornado wrote:
Does it also override if it is a privately owned behavioral health center and not a hospital?

No. 46.03 does not by statute prohibit carry in a privately owned medical center or other business, but since it is private and not government owned, it can be posted 30.06.30.07.

Keith B wrote:

TexasTornado wrote:
Does it also override if it is a privately owned behavioral health center and not a hospital?

No. 46.03 does not by statute prohibit carry in a privately owned medical center or other business, but since it is private and not government owned, it can be posted 30.06.30.07.

Thank you for the clarification.