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nightmare69 wrote:When I was in a gang training course taught by a local gang detective, he said that our area(also the area of my campus)is starting to see known gang members with valid LTC. The kicker is if they are not involved in any criminal activity there is nothing we can do about it because there isn't any stipulation forbidding gang members from applying for a LTC.

You are seeking a solution to a non-existent problem. If the individual qualifies to receive a LTC and is not involved in any criminal activity, there is no reason you should be able to revoke the LTC. By definition, you have just described a law abiding citizen. The fact that you don't approve of his friends, for whatever reason, is not justification for revoking the LTC. WHEN and IF the individual violates a law or commits a revocable offense, the situation is resolved, but not before then. "Innocent until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt"...sound familiar?

What you're wanting is to incriminate someone you acknowledge has a clean criminal record (they qualified for LTC) because of who they choose to associate. Slippery slope only touches the surface of how wrong that line of thinking is. I fully understand the problem of criminal gangs, but guilt by association is a bridge too far. If they're truly involved in gang activity, they will soon enough violate statutes that disqualify their LTC.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If your suggestion was ever actually to become law then the same law could be used against those members of organizations tracked by groups like the SPLC. They classify many of us who are members of patriot organizations as domestic terrorist and anti-government which is a total fabrication.

As others have stated, this is a slippery slope. In fact, it is dangerous.

Pawpaw wrote:Based on the stats of crimes committed by LTC holders, I would say this is a complete non-problem.

THIS ^^^
IMHO, it proves this is a solution looking for a problem.. Not a problem in need of a solution.

I respect the LEO who has to accept a very small number of LTC's have the license for the wrong reason, but really, what does it matter. a Smart LEO will be approaching known or suspected gang member with an assumption they are armed.... so wither its armed legally, or armed illegally, it would seem to make no difference. the gang member is assumed to have a gun.

flintknapper wrote:

(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... yshfZ.dpuf

^^^^^^^^^^^
Could be pretty tough to prove.

Most political parties fit this definition, IMHO.

Soccerdad1995 wrote:

flintknapper wrote:

(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... yshfZ.dpuf

^^^^^^^^^^^
Could be pretty tough to prove.

Most political parties fit this definition, IMHO.

Yeah maybe LTC reasons to deny should include any congressional service in the previous 5 years!!

nightmare69 wrote:

flintknapper wrote:

(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... yshfZ.dpuf

^^^^^^^^^^^
Could be pretty tough to prove.

Issue we have is there is no defenition of a sole "gang member" nor is it a crime to be one.

Yes Sir, pretty much my point.

I am not against pro-active law enforcement...to the extent it can reasonably prevent crime and does not infringe upon rights.

We would all love to see less crime and/or the potential for it. But in some cases...we are simply forced to be reactive. At that point, I believe harsh penalties and less plea bargaining might be the more useful tool.

Keep doing what you can.

nightmare69 wrote:There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

"LE" citizens should not have any allowance to revoke anything. That's what courts are for.

Law Enforcement at a local level keep contacts with known/admitted street gang members and have the ability to flag them as such for their safety. It may cause some heartburn, but I want to know on the side of the road. I know the prison system classifies them by their tattoos, known affiliates, and intelligence gained from their mail. In my experience the punishment for being a gang member is in the form of an enhancement to an original crime and is well documented.

Valid legal particulars aside, my sympathies lie with nightmare69.

chamberc wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

"LE" citizens should not have any allowance to revoke anything. That's what courts are for.

We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.

Does anyone know if they ask if you are a gang member on the LTC application?

nightmare69 wrote:

chamberc wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

"LE" citizens should not have any allowance to revoke anything. That's what courts are for.

We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.

Does anyone know if they ask if you are a gang member on the LTC application?

How would you prove someone is in a street gang if they aren't caught committing crimes? What probable cause do you use to stop and identify someone, if they aren't committing crimes. You would need their identification so you know who's name to submit to the DPS. Do you stop someone who you believe may look like a gang member?

nightmare69 wrote: We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.

EXACTLY!! WHEN you ARREST an LTC holder....at that point the same principle applies...not before. The problem is, you are wanting to be able to circumvent the legal process and revoke someone BEFORE they've actually committed any offense. You seek to appoint yourself judge and jury and declare someone guilty because, in your opinion, they MIGHT do something at some point in the future. That is just wrong!

talltex wrote:

nightmare69 wrote: We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.

EXACTLY!! WHEN you ARREST an LTC holder....at that point the same principle applies...not before. The problem is, you are wanting to be able to circumvent the legal process and revoke someone BEFORE they've actually committed any offense. You seek to appoint yourself judge and jury and declare someone guilty because, in your opinion, they MIGHT do something at some point in the future. That is just wrong!

Ummmm, if you arrest them you can do the paperwork to pull their LTC. That sounds like police work. Investigate. Arrest.

Javier730 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

chamberc wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

"LE" citizens should not have any allowance to revoke anything. That's what courts are for.

We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.

Does anyone know if they ask if you are a gang member on the LTC application?

How would you prove someone is in a street gang if they aren't caught committing crimes? What probable cause do you use to stop and identify someone, if they aren't committing crimes. You would need their identification so you know who's name to submit to the DPS. Do you stop someone who you believe may look like a gang member?

I work for a private university and can usually tell if someone doesn't belong there. It's not hard to spot gang tattoos and clothing style. On private property I can tell someone to leave because I don't like the color of their shoes so yes, I approach these people regularly.