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Keith B wrote:Heavier doesn't always mean better. Taking into consideration shot placement and expansion, it's all about energy transfer and penetration. The more ft/lbs of muzzle energy there is, the better chance for good penetration and shock/damage to something vital.

Here is a ballistics chart on 9mm ammo. There is a vast difference in ammo depending on the combination of bullet and powder charge.

http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

You see the 147 gr HST was +P

IMO, THE authority.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php ... -by-DocGKR

More good reading here: https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition

See page 2 for background: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

RoyGBiv wrote:IMO, THE authority.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php ... -by-DocGKR

More good reading here: https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition

See page 2 for background: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

The research I referenced was not based on conjecture and ballistic gelatin results, rather from real life combat statistics.

I subscribe to the lighter/faster theory.
I've been carrying Hornady 115 XTP 1120/330
The hornady 124 XTP in .357 sig 1350/502 =

Subsonic 147 grain rounds got a poor reputation in law enforcement circles years ago when they first became the "go to" round for 9mm. Accounts of failures to stop and things like rounds bouncing off of tires were fairly common. At that time, I saw no advantage to the heavier rounds and I still don't, although projectile design has come a long ways since then and the new heavy bullets are better than the ones back then.

My 9mm loads are either 115 or 124 grain. I'm confident either will do the job if I do my part with shot placement.

Short barrel version of the gold dot 124:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/21663 ... -box-of-20

Alex, I'll take "Things that gun guys love to argue about" for $500 please.

....

My primary carry has a 4.25" barrel and I"m not married to any particular ammo brand or design, although I avoid the gimmicky stuff. I've carried this LE 147gr Fed HST +P for about a year.

In its defense, it's not the 147gr stuff of old. The HST round was designed and tested in the early 2000s and not made available to the public until 2012.

However, it's time I shot up my current carry ammo and rotated some new product in its place. It might be HST again. Perhaps I'll go with 147gr +P, although I do have some 124gr HST (not +P).

I might try some Gold Dot.

I'll do some reading and see if there's a new compelling argument that offers a better alternative.

Personally, I hope to keep the debate over 124 gr versus 147 gr to the theoretical.

Remington Golden Saber 124gr BJHP. No feeding issues on any pistol from sub-compact through full size, striker fired or 1911.

This is what I use, and the reason why I use it. The picture says it all.

Left: Jacketed hollow point bullet pulled from an unfired Federal HST 147 grain 9mm cartridge. Right: An expanded 147 grain HST recovered from a block of ballistics gelatin.

Excaliber wrote:

JALLEN wrote:Before you fall in love with a particular bullet, usually because you read somewhere that Billy Joe Bob [last name redacted for PERSEC], retired Delta SEAL sniper ace fighter pilot used nothing else, and only a wimp or a pimp would think of using anything else, have a look at your pistol's owners manual to see what the manufacturer suggests.

I had a bunch of 147 gr. rounds for my 226. After all, I had been told that SEALs used those in the Hush Puppies, silenced pistols used to take out guard dogs. Well, I kept having a variety of issues with those in my P7M8. One day, I was perusing the owners manual and guess what? HK says the pistol was designed to fire 124-125 gr. rounds. I started using Speer 124 gr. Gold Dots and had no more problems.

Another good example of "when all else fails, and only as a last resort, read the directions."

It was Winston Churchill who said "you can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else."

Right2Carry wrote:

Keith B wrote:Heavier doesn't always mean better. Taking into consideration shot placement and expansion, it's all about energy transfer and penetration. The more ft/lbs of muzzle energy there is, the better chance for good penetration and shock/damage to something vital.

Here is a ballistics chart on 9mm ammo. There is a vast difference in ammo depending on the combination of bullet and powder charge.

http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

You see the 147 gr HST was +P

Yeah, but the ballistics show less kinetic energy and velocity than the +P in 124gr. Quite a bit less than the Corbon round I use.

Keith B wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:

Keith B wrote:Heavier doesn't always mean better. Taking into consideration shot placement and expansion, it's all about energy transfer and penetration. The more ft/lbs of muzzle energy there is, the better chance for good penetration and shock/damage to something vital.

Here is a ballistics chart on 9mm ammo. There is a vast difference in ammo depending on the combination of bullet and powder charge.

http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

You see the 147 gr HST was +P

Yeah, but the ballistics show less kinetic energy and velocity than the +P in 124gr. Quite a bit less than the Corbon round I use.

If lighter and higher velocity is better you might want to take a look at these.

http://libertyammunition.com/product/civil-defense-9mm

Right2Carry wrote:
If lighter and higher velocity is better you might want to take a look at these.

http://libertyammunition.com/product/civil-defense-9mm

Nope. Those still don't have the rating that the rounds I use do. These are only 450FPE at 2000 fps. The Pow'RBall rounds are slower, but rated at 483FPE. The energy transfer is key IMO. A good example is a 12 gauge slug has a rating of 2222 FPE. Would be a MUCH better defense round due to the weight of the slug.

Here's a good article on energy transfer. Just like hunting, it plays a big part in stopping the target.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/energy_transfer.htm

I use Federal HST 147 grain in 9mm. I also use up my carry ammo periodically and never had a single failure with those.