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Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:00 pm
by Jusme
LosAlce wrote:Jusme wrote:LosAlce wrote:From conversations I've had with my local rural bar and grill, despite not actually being a 51% establishment, the TABC told them to still post the sign since they applied for an extended license to sell alcohol until 2am. Their grill closes at 9pm. I wish I could remember the conversation now.
They did NOT want to post it, but they also didn't want any trouble from the TABC. Thankfully since our town is so tiny they said they didn't care if people CC inside but they are dubious of outsiders.
They may not want to enforce the TABC regulation, but if they "knowingly" do so they jeopardize their license. Also if a LTC holder is caught carrying there, even concealed, it will be their LTC on the line. They can avoid the issue by keeping their grill open until "last call"
They aren't telling people to do so and if anyone makes the choice to do so regardless of the sign, that's just the chance they take. They won't know either way because concealed is concealed.
I understand that they have not given blanket authority to carry anyway, but as former LEO I have seen a few TABC "permitted premise walk thrus" nobody leaves, they will frisk at will, check ID, run warrant checks and generally make life miserable for a while. Rural, out of the way, small establishments, where everybody knows your name, are their favorite targets. Even cars in the parking lots are fair game for "frisking" since the parking lot is considered part of the permitted premise.
Just a heads up.
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:49 pm
by mr1337
Jusme wrote:LosAlce wrote:Jusme wrote:LosAlce wrote:From conversations I've had with my local rural bar and grill, despite not actually being a 51% establishment, the TABC told them to still post the sign since they applied for an extended license to sell alcohol until 2am. Their grill closes at 9pm. I wish I could remember the conversation now.
They did NOT want to post it, but they also didn't want any trouble from the TABC. Thankfully since our town is so tiny they said they didn't care if people CC inside but they are dubious of outsiders.
They may not want to enforce the TABC regulation, but if they "knowingly" do so they jeopardize their license. Also if a LTC holder is caught carrying there, even concealed, it will be their LTC on the line. They can avoid the issue by keeping their grill open until "last call"
They aren't telling people to do so and if anyone makes the choice to do so regardless of the sign, that's just the chance they take. They won't know either way because concealed is concealed.
I understand that they have not given blanket authority to carry anyway, but as former LEO I have seen a few TABC "permitted premise walk thrus" nobody leaves, they will frisk at will, check ID, run warrant checks and generally make life miserable for a while. Rural, out of the way, small establishments, where everybody knows your name, are their favorite targets. Even cars in the parking lots are fair game for "frisking" since the parking lot is considered part of the permitted premise.
Just a heads up.
Illegal without probable cause. Clear 4th Amendment violation. I would bet any charges that come out of it would have to be dropped on Constitutional grounds.
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:29 am
by LosAlce
mr1337 wrote:Jusme wrote:
I understand that they have not given blanket authority to carry anyway, but as former LEO I have seen a few TABC "permitted premise walk thrus" nobody leaves, they will frisk at will, check ID, run warrant checks and generally make life miserable for a while. Rural, out of the way, small establishments, where everybody knows your name, are their favorite targets. Even cars in the parking lots are fair game for "frisking" since the parking lot is considered part of the permitted premise.
Just a heads up.
Illegal without probable cause. Clear 4th Amendment violation. I would bet any charges that come out of it would have to be dropped on Constitutional grounds.
I agree with mr1337 (nice screen am btw

) but I appreciate your heads up, Jusme. I will absolutely keep it in mind. Much appreciated

Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:50 am
by AJSully421
Reason number 3,000 why all off limits places but courts, jails, and airports need to be exempted for LTC holders... So that junk like 51% signs or blue signs, and all this other junk goes away.
Also, get firearm regulation stripped from the TABC for long guns.
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:32 pm
by Lynyrd
It took from August 10 until this week, that's 4 months, but now a friend just told me they have blue TABC signs in several locations and the 51% sign is gone! I guess the TABC complaint worked, but it sure took a while. Now I will be able to take the wife back in there to eat.
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:47 pm
by OldCurlyWolf
Jusme wrote:Lynyrd wrote:Skiprr wrote:A recommendation: Do report them to TABC (
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcemen ... cation.asp), but when you complete the form make no mention of your 2A rights or LTC issues. Simply state that the facility has the red 51% sign posted and, based on your search of TABC records, you believe that to be incorrect signage.
OOps, too late. I already filed the report.
Yeah the TABC is not 2A friendly. They don't believe that anyone should have a gun anywhere around alcoholic beverages as if one or the other can cause harm without human intervention.
The only place that you cannot carry long guns, in Texas is in a TABC permitted premise, including grocery stores, restaurants etc..
Actually that is not quite correct. The caveat is: You are not breaking the law. The TABC Licensee is breaking TABC regulations if he/she does not remove you and your long arm from the premises. Only if you refuse to leave are you breaking a law. Trespassing.
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:53 pm
by Abraham
Jusme,
Do you know if the TABC was in any way censured for their actions as you described them?
Or, were they fully within compliance of the law and continue with their actions? (with what sounds to me like over the top policing)
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:56 pm
by Soccerdad1995
OldCurlyWolf wrote:Jusme wrote:Lynyrd wrote:Skiprr wrote:A recommendation: Do report them to TABC (
https://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcemen ... cation.asp), but when you complete the form make no mention of your 2A rights or LTC issues. Simply state that the facility has the red 51% sign posted and, based on your search of TABC records, you believe that to be incorrect signage.
OOps, too late. I already filed the report.
Yeah the TABC is not 2A friendly. They don't believe that anyone should have a gun anywhere around alcoholic beverages as if one or the other can cause harm without human intervention.
The only place that you cannot carry long guns, in Texas is in a TABC permitted premise, including grocery stores, restaurants etc..
Actually that is not quite correct. The caveat is: You are not breaking the law. The TABC Licensee is breaking TABC regulations if he/she does not remove you and your long arm from the premises. Only if you refuse to leave are you breaking a law. Trespassing.
I wonder how that works if the long arm is concealed. Is the licensee obligated to search all persons and bags to identify things like a Sub 2000 in a woman's purse or a man's computer bag?
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:11 pm
by CleverNickname
Soccerdad1995 wrote:
I wonder how that works if the long arm is concealed. Is the licensee obligated to search all persons and bags to identify things like a Sub 2000 in a woman's purse or a man's computer bag?
No, the TABC law says "knowingly allowed."
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:35 pm
by Lynyrd
This post stayed idle for 4 months. I brought it back to life with an update to report that another sign had come down, and it was now legal for license holders to carry in another business. But, the comments that have been added since my report are just continuing an argument about the TABC. I guess I was naive to expect that this community would be happy to know that another sign came down, and that the TABC did the right thing.
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:11 pm
by warnmar10
Lynyrd wrote:This post stayed idle for 4 months. I brought it back to life with an update to report that another sign had come down, and it was now legal for license holders to carry in another business. But, the comments that have been added since my report are just continuing an argument about the TABC. I guess I was naive to expect that this community would be happy to know that another sign came down, and that the TABC did the right thing.
Christmas is RUINED!
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:07 am
by OldCurlyWolf
Lynyrd wrote:This post stayed idle for 4 months. I brought it back to life with an update to report that another sign had come down, and it was now legal for license holders to carry in another business. But, the comments that have been added since my report are just continuing an argument about the TABC. I guess I was naive to expect that this community would be happy to know that another sign came down, and that the TABC did the right thing.
Still like to see inappropriate signs removed.

Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:08 am
by Lynyrd
OldCurlyWolf wrote:Lynyrd wrote:This post stayed idle for 4 months. I brought it back to life with an update to report that another sign had come down, and it was now legal for license holders to carry in another business. But, the comments that have been added since my report are just continuing an argument about the TABC. I guess I was naive to expect that this community would be happy to know that another sign came down, and that the TABC did the right thing.
Still like to see inappropriate signs removed.


Just stirring the pot.
Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:34 am
by ScottDLS
Lynyrd wrote:This post stayed idle for 4 months. I brought it back to life with an update to report that another sign had come down, and it was now legal for license holders to carry in another business. But, the comments that have been added since my report are just continuing an argument about the TABC. I guess I was naive to expect that this community would be happy to know that another sign came down, and that the TABC did the right thing.
If the sign was supposed to be a BLUE sign (i.e. the license issued for <51%) from the beginning and TABC, said to post a RED, then the removal of the sign is not making, it legal to carry. It was always legal to carry, they just eliminated the sign saying that it was...

Re: 51% Sign Posted, but TABC License calls for Blue Sign
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:50 am
by Lynyrd
ScottDLS wrote:
If the sign was supposed to be a BLUE sign (i.e. the license issued for <51%) from the beginning and TABC, said to post a RED, then the removal of the sign is not making, it legal to carry. It was always legal to carry, they just eliminated the sign saying that it was...

You are correct.

But I wonder if a deputy would give me time to look up the liquor license on the TABC website and show him they were supposed to have a blue sign before they put me in handcuffs? I don't want to be the test case, ain't nobody got time for that. And by the way, I found out they posted the 51% on their own to keep guns out. TABC threatened to fine them if they didn't take it down (due to my complaint). They also are too ignorant to know about 30.06/30.07 as of yet. And I'm sure not going to tell them.