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tool4daman wrote:I bet those 24% would also like to abolish capitalism.

And the first amendment. Its just filled with white privilege!

anygunanywhere wrote:

CZp10 wrote:23% ban handguns from non LEO, 55% want stricter gun sale laws, 37% want stricter US gun policy
http://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
My personal opinion is we, as pro 2A people, should be doing more to try to explain our view constructively to those who don’t “like” guns.

I'm retired. I've got better things to do than try to convince someone who doesn't like me or my guns to like me or my guns. I don't care what they like or don't like. Trying to constructively convince those individuals is like explaining quantum theory to that white stuff on chicken poo.

If we give up we will lose. Its not us older people that will suffer the consequences but our children and grandchildren. While the diehard gungrabbers probably won't be convinced. Most people are open to some logic. Take a school teacher to the range. Calmly explain how LTC folks are the most law abiding folk in America. Teach history how the WWII Japanese would never invade America because we were all armed. Giving up now is giving up up on everything so many have fought for.

This and the comment about half of the voters supporting HRC should demonstrate that the old "United" States is a thing of the past.

It's time to get serious as about our national divorce and begin hammering out terms and areas for the Nations that will come.

Jeff B.

CZp10 wrote:Yikes, so far 24% say they literally want the second amendment removed from the constitution. I can understand people wanting to review the restrictions put on it or not put on it, but removing it completely? There are two things America is known for that almost no other country in the world has, the second amendment and capitalism. If you don't like those two things, which many on the left don't, there are many, many countries that they can move to. There is nowhere else for people who like those two things to go.

I've had many "conversations" with local people in my North Texas community. Many of those conversations started when two of us got on social media and suggested that our school district implement the same teaches-with-guns program as the Argyle School District did. Not only was the result a major teacher bashing session but the keyboard bullies made it clear that they would take every gun if they had their way. There is no compromise or half-way thinking among that group. From subsequent conversations, it was also clear that most of those same people don't like anything that America stands for, including capitalism. And they are not about to move any more than that Hollywood celebrities have after their threats. I don't know if our local number is near 24% but it is more than 10%, based on the social media activities. Call them Communists, Socialists or whatever, they are firm believers that government has the answer to all problems and the rest of us should be subjugated to government rule. The idea that government represents us is a foreign concept, just like rational conversation.

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

Liberty requires responsibility and accountability. As the sound underpinnings of American society – the nuclear family, moral absolutes, a strong work ethic, decent education and real journalism -- have been assaulted by Progressive elements since early in the 20th century, the concepts and applications of responsibility and accountability, let alone Liberty, are seen less and less frequently. Americans, by and large (including myself and presumably most of us here on the board as well), are comfortable and happy to be so as long as they don’t have to go out of their way. This comfort has led to complacency, and allowed the Progressive element to incrementally chip away at the concepts and values that made America what it was -- to the degree that only a galvanizing event in history can bring America back around to full appreciation of our Founding principles. Such historic events are often fraught with very real struggles and death. As Thomas Paine put it, though, “If there is to be trouble, let it be in my time that my children may know peace”.

chasfm11 wrote:

CZp10 wrote:Yikes, so far 24% say they literally want the second amendment removed from the constitution. I can understand people wanting to review the restrictions put on it or not put on it, but removing it completely? There are two things America is known for that almost no other country in the world has, the second amendment and capitalism. If you don't like those two things, which many on the left don't, there are many, many countries that they can move to. There is nowhere else for people who like those two things to go.

I've had many "conversations" with local people in my North Texas community. Many of those conversations started when two of us got on social media and suggested that our school district implement the same teaches-with-guns program as the Argyle School District did. Not only was the result a major teacher bashing session but the keyboard bullies made it clear that they would take every gun if they had their way. There is no compromise or half-way thinking among that group. From subsequent conversations, it was also clear that most of those same people don't like anything that America stands for, including capitalism. And they are not about to move any more than that Hollywood celebrities have after their threats. I don't know if our local number is near 24% but it is more than 10%, based on the social media activities. Call them Communists, Socialists or whatever, they are firm believers that government has the answer to all problems and the rest of us should be subjugated to government rule. The idea that government represents us is a foreign concept, just like rational conversation.

The irony is that they will have to actually bear arms to remove firearms and capitalism from America. I wonder if they realize what a real civil war will look like if they continue their campaign of hate?

Those 24% will be the first ones to lose their lives when the looting starts.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Couldn't resist. If the right to bear arms is outdated, then so is the bill of rights. Freedom of Speech is outdated, Freedom of Religion is outdated, so on and so-forth. So to answer the questions - no, it's not outdated - with some of the scary things our government is doing and has tried in the past, I think its more important than ever.

Pariah3j wrote:

Couldn't resist. If the right to bear arms is outdated, then so is the bill of rights. Freedom of Speech is outdated, Freedom of Religion is outdated, so on and so-forth. So to answer the questions - no, it's not outdated - with some of the scary things our government is doing and has tried in the past, I think its more important than ever.

CZp10 wrote:Yikes, so far 24% say they literally want the second amendment removed from the constitution. I can understand people wanting to review the restrictions put on it or not put on it, but removing it completely?

OK, I'll take a stab. If I can't argue against myself, I don't have a very good grip on the argument. Here we go.

The right to bear arms is outdated. In the late 1700's, a bunch of wealthy farmers and businessmen (founding fathers) declared their right to not cover the costs (pay taxes) of governing, maintaining, and protecting their own colonies. They drafted an eloquent document (declaration of indepencance) and partnered with their benefactor's enemies (France and Spain). After a bloody war, they set up a new government based on their fantasy ideals (Articles of Confederation). The result was a crippled, pennyless government.

The Constitution formed a more realistic and powerful federal government, but since it followed war and failure, it was still crippled and pennyless. Militias had recently proved to work well against a trained British army. In addition, Militias handled all their own preparation costs including training, equipment, and arms. Plus, the US had a lousy standing army, so we kinda needed this Militia idea. The 2nd Amendment wasn't an idealistic constitutional escape clause. The 2nd Amendment put "the people" on notice that "the people" are expected to serve in the Militia.

200+ years. Our country is a success. We figured out how to fund, train, and maintain the most powerful standing military on the planet. Our enemies are no longer inside our borders. Our paid, trained, and equipped fighting men can deploy anywhere quickly. We don't need teenage rednecks who trained on their farm hunting rabits to bring their 10/22 to the courthouse and stop the marauding Indians. Civilian equipment and training lags 75 years behind our military capability and needs. If you want to prepare for military service, learn to code, not field strip your semi-automatic rifle.

The question at hand has nothing to do with hunting or protecting your family. It asks if civilian firearm ownership still supports the country's needs of a well regulated militia. The US doesn't need a pop-up army of farmers any more, therefore the 2nd amendment is outdated.

acronym 10/12/2017 12:39 PM

LeonCarr wrote:Those 24% will be the first ones to lose their lives when the looting starts.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I think you're mistaken. They will be safe at home while others do their dirty work.

The people enforcing a bump ban, a semi-auto ban, or salty weapon ban will be the same ones who enforced the old AWB. The same ones who enforce the carry laws in NYC, Chicago, DC, Los Angeles, and so on. The same ones who enforce the current ban on unregistered gun mufflers and rifles with 13" barrels.

Theres no shortage of people who will take thirty pieces of silver to infringe the right of their neighbors to own and carry weapons.

Well if its outdated so should freedom of speech. Also we shouldn't be able to decide how many kids we have. Oh and we should be assigned our religion which would be science. And we should also be assigned our profession. America is the greatest country on the planet for a reason. You take one of our rights and little by little they will take them all. Its kind of like Negan from "The Walking Dead" he had to first disarm them before he could fully control Rick and his people, and he did for a while. It wasn't until they armed themselves and fought back that they had a chance at Freedom again.

Acronym Esq wrote:

CZp10 wrote:Yikes, so far 24% say they literally want the second amendment removed from the constitution. I can understand people wanting to review the restrictions put on it or not put on it, but removing it completely?

OK, I'll take a stab. If I can't argue against myself, I don't have a very good grip on the argument. Here we go.

The right to bear arms is outdated. In the late 1700's, a bunch of wealthy farmers and businessmen (founding fathers) declared their right to not cover the costs (pay taxes) of governing, maintaining, and protecting their own colonies. They drafted an eloquent document (declaration of indepencance) and partnered with their benefactor's enemies (France and Spain). After a bloody war, they set up a new government based on their fantasy ideals (Articles of Confederation). The result was a crippled, pennyless government.

The Constitution formed a more realistic and powerful federal government, but since it followed war and failure, it was still crippled and pennyless. Militias had recently proved to work well against a trained British army. In addition, Militias handled all their own preparation costs including training, equipment, and arms. Plus, the US had a lousy standing army, so we kinda needed this Militia idea. The 2nd Amendment wasn't an idealistic constitutional escape clause. The 2nd Amendment put "the people" on notice that "the people" are expected to serve in the Militia.

200+ years. Our country is a success. We figured out how to fund, train, and maintain the most powerful standing military on the planet. Our enemies are no longer inside our borders. Our paid, trained, and equipped fighting men can deploy anywhere quickly. We don't need teenage rednecks who trained on their farm hunting rabits to bring their 10/22 to the courthouse and stop the marauding Indians. Civilian equipment and training lags 75 years behind our military capability and needs. If you want to prepare for military service, learn to code, not field strip your semi-automatic rifle.

The question at hand has nothing to do with hunting or protecting your family. It asks if civilian firearm ownership still supports the country's needs of a well regulated militia. The US doesn't need a pop-up army of farmers any more, therefore the 2nd amendment is outdated.

acronym 10/12/2017 12:39 PM

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So your saying the opposing forces you mentioned are the only forces we have to fear that would keep a state from being "free"? No other government or country has ever disarmed its people and then pushed its agenda onto them?

What about the part that says, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."? When does it stop being our right? What about all the Antifa people spreading hate? Should they lose their freedom of speech? Where exactly do we draw this line of what is and isn't outdated?

I do not see how anyone could honestly say they believe the 2nd amendment is outdated without saying all our amendments are outdated. Just because we don't have the same threats as you mentioned doesn't mean we don't have a government that would love to make us its slaves. Just look at how around Houston as well as many other cities/states conservative Pastors were/are being censored.

You view the 2A just for those reasons you listed, but my view sees it as the founding fathers just escaped a tyrannical system and they knew the only way to prevent that from happening again was to give people power to fight back. The 2A is our great equalizer. Our founding fathers knew that a time would come when evil would enter the system and the people would need to fight back. The second we give that up we will see a huge change. One not for the better I honestly believe.