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Charles L. Cotton wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:55 pm The testosterone and stupidity were flowing like wine! This will be an interesting case to follow. I can't see the detail some of you folks are describing. I can't see what the dead man did to prompt the father or son to shoot.

As with most videos, it didn't start at the beginning, so we don't know who did what in terms of the initial provocation. Remember, both the ability to defend oneself, as well as the lack of a duty to retreat, can be lost if one provokes the other person. Remember also that the provocation must be what started the trouble between the parties. As one Member noted, the dead man was a huge guy. This is a factor. The people are neighbors so a history of known violence could also be a factor.

I found a version of the video on YouTube that has all of the cursing bleeped out, so I'm going to use it in my LTC classes. It's a great example of letting pride and Adrenalin get you killed or charged with some form of homicide. One man is dead and two are in jail over a mattress.

Chas.

Charles, would you be willing to share the link of the cleaned up video. I’d like to show it in my classes also.

jb2012 wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:16 pm I don’t think you should pull your gun until you are absolutely ready to shoot and truly fear for your life or someone elses, because the moment someone tries to call your bluff (like appears in the video) it puts you in a bad position.

Yes. When you introduce a firearm into a confrontation, you are escalating it in unforeseeable ways. The other party will perceive a threat to his life and may respond in a way that compels you to shoot to avoid being killed. That's a long-winded way of saying be darned sure you're prepared to pull the trigger before you display the gun. Otherwse, either you may have to kill when you still had a chance of talking your way out of the situation or you may get killed because you hesitate, not having been prepared mentally to actually shoot.

Someone was killed over trash. That is so stupid even to walk out armed and try to sort it out. Can't a call to non-emergency PD line help?
Both shooters, would face long time in jail.

Beiruty wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:57 am Someone was killed over trash. That is so stupid even to walk out armed and try to sort it out. Can't a call to non-emergency PD line help?
Both shooters, would face long time in jail.

Many of us here are always armed. Usually a lot more discretely. There are lots of people that just hate losing an argument, and are more afraid of losing face than getting shot or spending time in prison. I think ego kills more people than greed.

I, and my family members who are licensed, are always armed. When thy got their license, I ensured they understood the concept of de-escelation; don't let your mouth write a check your ass can't cash.

Beiruty wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:57 am Someone was killed over trash. That is so stupid even to walk out armed and try to sort it out. Can't a call to non-emergency PD line help?
Both shooters, would face long time in jail.

Yes sir, that's what I don't understand. If the now-deceased man was illegally dumping, then why not just call the police about it?

K.Mooneyham wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:48 am

Beiruty wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:57 am Someone was killed over trash. That is so stupid even to walk out armed and try to sort it out. Can't a call to non-emergency PD line help?
Both shooters, would face long time in jail.

Yes sir, that's what I don't understand. If the now-deceased man was illegally dumping, then why not just call the police about it?

Reports I read stated the dispute was caused by the shooters removing two mattresses from a dumpster in the garbage alley. It appears to have happened a couple of times. The dumpsters are common to the customers of the city garbage collection. There's another alternative which is curb pick up, but I doubt that option would be available to neighborhoods with alleys. Maybe the history of the dispute will come out at trial. I believe the two shooters knew the victim from previous encounters was very volatile and may have purposely provoked him by taking the mattresses out of the dumpster again. In one report the wife said the mattresses were put in the dumpster because the city wouldn't pick them up if the were not in the dumpster and perhaps the shooters thought otherwise or that they took up too much space. It's all speculation at this point. However, two guys showing up in a common, public area with guns to confront an unarmed man is ridiculous and the father has his finger on the trigger the entire time ; several times you can see it twitching. At one point the father tells the victim he'll shoot him if he comes within 3 feet and then moves forward himself.???? It's also unfortunate the victim somehow got the bat, but from viewing the video with stop and start his hands were empty for most of the encounter. He turned away I'm guessing reacting to the first shot and then both shooters had their way with him. The father even racked the slide of his pistol and shot again, then the son blew the back of his head open. A defense attorney made the comment, "they wanted him dead". Tombstone has the "Gunfight at the OK Corral", which was actually an alley, too, so maybe this movie should be "Showdown at the DA Corral"

I assume with the video before the shooting. Both the men could be arrested for OK, I'm going say it "brandishing".

It also appears neither is on their own property.

So go home, call the police, don't die that day.

They should also charge the woman who was egging them on. Like the getaway driver for a bank robbery, she was as much a part of it as the rest.

I've been trying to read up on this one, and it keeps getting more convoluted. We do have a little more information than just the video, but it's far from a whole picture. But, for myself, I really hope that I would have figured out a way to get out of that situation before it got to the point it was at when the video started.

Like people said here, Howard had a long history of anger issues and seemed to not take his happy pills regularly. His fiancé knew it (and made sure to state it in an interview) so she's as much a party to getting him killed as anyone else is for egging him on.

Doc Hollandaise apparently did not originally come out with a shotgun. His father did seem to come out with a handgun, but one could imagine that it might have been concealed, even in the very limited clothing that he had available for it. From what I've read, Michael saw how the encounter was going and went inside to get the shotgun. Given Howard's documented history of irrationality and assaults, I find it hard to blame either of the millers for wanting to have a firearm on them, especially when Howard was armed with a bat.

On the other hand, a detective who interviewed them after the incident claims that they admitted to wanting to have a situation where they could shoot Howard.

And what makes it really fun - the chief of police gave a press statement later that day (or maybe the next) addressing the shooting then running off on a tangent talking about how their 911 operators were overwhelmed with calls that morning and they had to call more officers on too. IF the millers had tried to call for law enforcement intervention (and I've seen no claims that they did or did not make such a call), it might not have even made it to an operator, let alone to an LEO who would have responded to the scene in a timely fashion.

But there is so much going on with this incident that I really don't want to say that I think anyone is especially at fault or innocent until a lot more facts are found and publicized.

There was no deascallation from the shooters their claim to stand their ground may work if they were attacked while minding their own business، they were only aggravating the situation by challenging the other party.

troglodyte wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:38 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:55 pm The testosterone and stupidity were flowing like wine! This will be an interesting case to follow. I can't see the detail some of you folks are describing. I can't see what the dead man did to prompt the father or son to shoot.

As with most videos, it didn't start at the beginning, so we don't know who did what in terms of the initial provocation. Remember, both the ability to defend oneself, as well as the lack of a duty to retreat, can be lost if one provokes the other person. Remember also that the provocation must be what started the trouble between the parties. As one Member noted, the dead man was a huge guy. This is a factor. The people are neighbors so a history of known violence could also be a factor.

I found a version of the video on YouTube that has all of the cursing bleeped out, so I'm going to use it in my LTC classes. It's a great example of letting pride and Adrenalin get you killed or charged with some form of homicide. One man is dead and two are in jail over a mattress.

Chas.

Charles, would you be willing to share the link of the cleaned up video. I’d like to show it in my classes also.

Here it is.

Chas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPPJ6HOrcqY

wow! 1 man dead and numerous lives ruined over trash! unbelievable!
I'm with Mr Cotton, the stupidity and testosterone was rampant on that video.
But....I will say, the shirtless guy, never raised his voice...that could be important to those that decide things.
Also, the news headline of "....as wife pleads for his life" or whatever....she's saying "you won't kill my husband", that's not pleading, that a statement, almost a command. Honestly, the news media's command of basic English is so lacking it would be shocking if it weren't happening on a daily basis.

Claude Werner, The Tactical Professor, has an interesting analysis. I hope I will always be able to choose run-fu over gun-fu.

https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com ... r-part-ii/

Go to 2:05 and hit the gear wheel. Adjust speed to .25
It looks like the bat was thrown at the dad and the son fired the shotgun.

I don't see how they aren't found guilty since there seem to be several factors where they lose protections (IE public space?, engaging in the confrontation, threatening language, etc...) IANAL though, and the law can be odd.