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LeonCarr wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:00 pm I honesty don't know why people waste their time and money on PCCs.

Unless your range forbids shooting 5.56 Carbines (many indoor ranges allow them now), there is no advantage to them when a 5.56 with about three times the effective range is the same size as a PCC.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

There are times when a short range round is desirable!

LeonCarr wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:00 pm I honesty don't know why people waste their time and money on PCCs.

Unless your range forbids shooting 5.56 Carbines (many indoor ranges allow them now), there is no advantage to them when a 5.56 with about three times the effective range is the same size as a PCC.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

My primary personal defense weapons are my pistols and AR-15s, so I’m not coming at having a PCC from exactly that perspective...although I think they can be a valid self defense option. For me, the attractions of a PCC are manifold:

1. They’re just plain fun to shoot, and much cheaper to shoot than an AR. 1,000 rounds of bulk 5.56 is going to cost you in the vicinity of $300. OTH, 1,000 rounds of bulk 9mm will cost you about $75 less than that....give or take.

2. Both my old Kel-tec Sub-2000 and my current Ruger PC9 use the same magazines as my 9mm Glock pistols, so there’s no extra cost for a suite of dedicated magazines. It will accept my G26, G19, G17, and 33-round "funstick" magazines.

3. A Sub-2000 folded up will fit fully concealed in the laptop pocket in my messenger bag. My Ruger PC9 is a take-down that fits in a smallish backpack that doesn’t shout "GUN!!!!". In either case, the weapon packs down an inconspicuous manner, making discreet carry of a long gun, or concealing it inside a vehicle, that much easier.

4. Magazine compatibility aside, there’s something to be said for a long gun chambered is the same caliber as one's sidearm—and there’s a long firearms tradition of exactly that. How many forum members here have revolvers and lever action rifles both chambered in .357 magnum, or both chambered in .44 magnum .... or .22LR, for that matter? Granted, both of the magnum handgun cartridges are more powerful cartridges that perform very well in carbine and longer barrels, but they aren’t the only ones that do that. A 124 grain 9mm is good for roughly an additional 200 FPS from a 16" carbine barrel than it gets from a 4" handgun barrel. That additional 200 FPS is nothing to sneeze at. It puts into the same power range as a .357 magnum fired from some revolvers.....which means that in extremis, you could hunt with it if you had to.

If I had to choose one or the other—an AR versus a PCC—I’d pick the AR. But I don’t have to choose, and I have the luxury of owning both. And although it wouldn’t be MY first choice for a self defense long gun, I can see how it could make sense for someone else.

But mostly, it’s just fun to shoot.

Just built an AR pistol with 4" bbl, SBA4 brace and buis. Not for distance shooting or hunting, it's all about fun. Collapsed length is 22" and with SBA4 brace extended it is 25". As Tam said 9mm is cheap enough to shoot just for fun and this thing is a lot of fun.

I have an AR-9mm carbine but this is a lot more fun.

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:37 pm

LeonCarr wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:00 pm I honesty don't know why people waste their time and money on PCCs.

Unless your range forbids shooting 5.56 Carbines (many indoor ranges allow them now), there is no advantage to them when a 5.56 with about three times the effective range is the same size as a PCC.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

My primary personal defense weapons are my pistols and AR-15s, so I’m not coming at having a PCC from exactly that perspective...although I think they can be a valid self defense option. For me, the attractions of a PCC are manifold:

1. They’re just plain fun to shoot, and much cheaper to shoot than an AR. 1,000 rounds of bulk 5.56 is going to cost you in the vicinity of $300. OTH, 1,000 rounds of bulk 9mm will cost you about $75 less than that....give or take.

2. Both my old Kel-tec Sub-2000 and my current Ruger PC9 use the same magazines as my 9mm Glock pistols, so there’s no extra cost for a suite of dedicated magazines. It will accept my G26, G19, G17, and 33-round "funstick" magazines.

3. A Sub-2000 folded up will fit fully concealed in the laptop pocket in my messenger bag. My Ruger PC9 is a take-down that fits in a smallish backpack that doesn’t shout "GUN!!!!". In either case, the weapon packs down an inconspicuous manner, making discreet carry of a long gun, or concealing it inside a vehicle, that much easier.

4. Magazine compatibility aside, there’s something to be said for a long gun chambered is the same caliber as one's sidearm—and there’s a long firearms tradition of exactly that. How many forum members here have revolvers and lever action rifles both chambered in .357 magnum, or both chambered in .44 magnum .... or .22LR, for that matter? Granted, both of the magnum handgun cartridges are more powerful cartridges that perform very well in carbine and longer barrels, but they aren’t the only ones that do that. A 124 grain 9mm is good for roughly an additional 200 FPS from a 16" carbine barrel than it gets from a 4" handgun barrel. That additional 200 FPS is nothing to sneeze at. It puts into the same power range as a .357 magnum fired from some revolvers.....which means that in extremis, you could hunt with it if you had to.

If I had to choose one or the other—an AR versus a PCC—I’d pick the AR. But I don’t have to choose, and I have the luxury of owning both. And although it wouldn’t be MY first choice for a self defense long gun, I can see how it could make sense for someone else.

But mostly, it’s just fun to shoot.

Another reason to own a PCC is for training your kids. Less recoil and as TAM mentioned ammo is cheaper. I started my daughter out on a S&W 22lr M&P, stepped up to the S&W 380 EZ, and Now she shoots a M&P 9mm. I did the same with rifles stepped her up from 22lr to 9mm to 223\556. She’s 19 now and a better shot than I was at that age.

Fun, fun, fun! A good PCC will put a smile on any new shooter's face. No recoil to speak of, easy ergonomics on the good ones, great accuracy without a lot of effort, and you can't argue with the cost to shoot.

Sub 2000 is an interesting gun, but it's not one I'd personally want to put a lot of rounds through and it's not really up to competition shooting. But, I have seen a guy run one and he was having a blast.

I have a CZ Scorpion that I love and a Sig MPX SBR that I'm about to order.

There's a new Beretta sub gun that hasn't made it over to the states yet that I really want to check out.

Those B&T guns are dead sexy and keep turning my easily distracted head.

Don't sell the Grandpower Stribog 9mm short either. That has some potential.

Old school, I'm waiting on a demo MP5 a guy is supposed to be making for me to test out. I bought an old MP5 used tri-lug suppressor so I really need the gun for it.

Personally, I've got too many AR rifles so I prefer the non-AR platform PCCs because they're different.

Scott B. wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:37 pm Fun, fun, fun! A good PCC will put a smile on any new shooter's face. No recoil to speak of, easy ergonomics on the good ones, great accuracy without a lot of effort, and you can't argue with the cost to shoot.

Sub 2000 is an interesting gun, but it's not one I'd personally want to put a lot of rounds through and it's not really up to competition shooting. But, I have seen a guy run one and he was having a blast.

I have a CZ Scorpion that I love and a Sig MPX SBR that I'm about to order.

There's a new Beretta sub gun that hasn't made it over to the states yet that I really want to check out.

Those B&T guns are dead sexy and keep turning my easily distracted head.

Don't sell the Grandpower Stribog 9mm short either. That has some potential.

Old school, I'm waiting on a demo MP5 a guy is supposed to be making for me to test out. I bought an old MP5 used tri-lug suppressor so I really need the gun for it.

Personally, I've got too many AR rifles so I prefer the non-AR platform PCCs because they're different.

Ditto with the ARs, and that’s why I bought a PCC in a different format. I’m kind of interested in the Scopion and the Striborg. MAC had some issues with his Striborg, but Grandpower has been very responsive and has dealt with the problem. They're coming out with a Gen IV version that fixes all the feed reliability issues they had. So if I was going to buy one, I’d wait a bit until those are available.

I got an accepted offer on great looking AR9 (pre-owned, local guy, like new) my second PCC, I shot it a USPSA Match at XMG shooting club and I was delighted with its performance

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WY44Zks4SpHwo16J6

I know nobody owns one yet, but surprised that there is no mention of the LWRC smg 45. If I buy a pcc this will be the one!

Scott B. wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:37 pm Fun, fun, fun! A good PCC will put a smile on any new shooter's face. No recoil to speak of, easy ergonomics on the good ones, great accuracy without a lot of effort, and you can't argue with the cost to shoot.

Sub 2000 is an interesting gun, but it's not one I'd personally want to put a lot of rounds through and it's not really up to competition shooting. But, I have seen a guy run one and he was having a blast.

I have a CZ Scorpion that I love and a Sig MPX SBR that I'm about to order.

There's a new Beretta sub gun that hasn't made it over to the states yet that I really want to check out.

Those B&T guns are dead sexy and keep turning my easily distracted head.

Don't sell the Grandpower Stribog 9mm short either. That has some potential.

Old school, I'm waiting on a demo MP5 a guy is supposed to be making for me to test out. I bought an old MP5 used tri-lug suppressor so I really need the gun for it.

Personally, I've got too many AR rifles so I prefer the non-AR platform PCCs because they're different.

The PMX looks really fun! https://www.berettadefensetechnologies. ... achine-gun

That's it. Just waiting on the red tape to clear for import.

Does anyone on here have a Kriss Vector in 45ACP?
I was looking at getting another PCC for the house (already have a SUB2000 that likes to live in the Jeep), and I figured 45ACP would be really easy to suppress.
What are y'alls thoughts?

Vectors are interesting, and definitely cool looking. They have several pistol variants and make a good SBR candidate.

My advice, see if you can put your hands on one before buying if you haven't done already. See if you like the ergonomics before dropping some change. They have their own feel to them.

teraph wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:11 am Does anyone on here have a Kriss Vector in 45ACP?
I was looking at getting another PCC for the house (already have a SUB2000 that likes to live in the Jeep), and I figured 45ACP would be really easy to suppress.
What are y'alls thoughts?

Here’s my experience with trying to suppress a Sub-2000 ....

I have one pistol caliber suppressor—a Rugged Obsidian 45. I typically keep it mounted to a Glock 17, but I wanted to see how effective it would be on my Sub-2000, using subsonics. I already had a 9mm accessory piston for it, and fixed barrel spacers for both caliber pistons. I bought a 9mm endcap for it and put that on. I also installed the 9mm fixed barrel spacer over the 9mm piston, and I mounted it on the Sub-2000. The exact same setup, minus the fixed barrel spacer, works beautifully on the G17.

It’s worth mentioning at this point that my Sub-2000 has never shot to point of aim, even with the front sight post adjusted all the way over to the left. I even mounted a Primary Arms RDS on it, and had to crank the windage ALL the way over to the right, and still could not align POA with POI. POI is always quite low and left of POA by several inches at 25 yards, and it would be Blanca the abuse of the word "tight" to describe the group sizes. A shotgun would have been better. But, I figured that little could go wrong in the 8.5" between the barrel muzzle, and the 9mm suppressor endcap. Boy was I wrong.

Within a very few rounds ... like fewer than 10-15.... the Sub2K started key-holing at 15 yards. Upon examination, there had been a massive bullet strike of the endcap, effectively destroying it, bulging it outward and turning the exit hole into an oblong. Praise Jesus, the baffles—which accommodate a .45 caliber bullet—were not damaged, else a very expensive suppressor would have been trashed. In the end, I remounted the 45 caliber endcap, and it wasn’t noticeably any noisier with the slightly larger exit hole. (I do this with my rifle suppressors too. They’re all .308 caliber, but I run them on both .308 and 5.56 weapons, and it doesn’t seem to matter. They still suppress very well either way.)

On a separate occasion, using the same suppressor setup and ammo, (except with the 45 caliber endcap... the 9mm endcap is a $65 part, so I won’t be replacing it anytime soon), but with the suppressor mounted to my Ruger PC9 this time, the combination shot to point of aim with acceptable group sizes, both with and without the suppressor.

The ammo used in both range sessions was regular old American Eagle 147 grain subsonic ball....so reasonably good quality ammo. The ammo didn’t cause this. The suppressor didn’t cause it, as it works just fine on a different, better carbine. It wasn’t me. I’m no Carlos Hathcock, but I’m generally a decent shot with a long gun. It wasn’t the PA RDS, as that's now mounted to my PC9 and works great. There’s something scootchie about a carbine that is THAT inaccurate, even at handgun distances. When I first got my Sub2K, I used to keep it in the back of my vehicle for "something arises"; and several times I’ve carried it into a 30.06-posted hospital in a messenger bag to be there for the birth of my grandkids. But in the end, nothing really worked to make it even close to reliably and dependably accurate, and it ended up sitting in my safe for a long time until I bought the Ruger....at which point I gave it to my ex-gunsmith son. If he can sort it out, he can keep it. I’m happy with the Ruger.

I realize that others may not have the same experience with their Sub-2000s that I had with mine, and that’s fine. Mine was a real POS. If you can’t reliably hit even close to where you’re aiming with a carbine at handgun distances, that’s not a gun you should be using in a self defense situation. So I gave up on mine. The Ruger is larger and heavier in every respect than the Sub-2000, and even though it’s a takedown rifle that fits in a relatively small backpack (it's not that small), it doesn’t pack down as small as the Kel-Tec does. In my admittedly limited experience with PCCs, the Sub-2000 is an excellent idea that has been poorly executed. I’d not buy another one.

A Gen3 Striborg is enticing. But in the end, a LAW Tactical folding adapter will turn an AR15 pistol or SBR into a nearly equally easily concealed firearm of greater power and accuracy....and I already have unused AR receiver sets and LPKs in the safe, and two already-built short barreled AR uppers. So I can throw together a folding stock pistol lower for another $240—the price of the folding stock adapter. So that’s what I’m probably going to do, and I'll keep the PC9 as a fun gun with some limited SD/tactical uses.

TAM I’d be interested in hearing if your son has the same issues with the gun & if he has done anything to correct them.

Probably a PCC on the AR platform will be my next purchase, does anyone know a store in the Dallas east area that has a good selection to look at? Not looking for the high end ones. (9mm)