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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:53 pm
by stevie_d_64
The media was going to pick a shooting, any shooting, and spin it into an anti-Castle Doctrine story anyway you look at it...They were just waiting for it to fall into their laps...They didn't have to wait long...
And it'll be followed up by another "stupid gun owners" story spun to make us ALL look bad...And when it does get no-billed, they'll spin a pro-gunowners judicial system gone crazy type story...
Maybe they will maybe they won't, but I will not be surprised...
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:06 pm
by Abraham
My opinion was hasty.
My gut reaction is from the training of "always know what and where your bullet will strike".
TX Rancher's perspective is right on the money.
More info is needed.
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:49 pm
by Farley
Well, if this was simply a tragic misunderstanding, and that is what it sounds like, I feel bad for both families involved. But, IMHO, the guy that is going next door in the middle of the night kicking and banging VIOLENTLY on the door bears most of the guilt here. After all, we are all responsible for our actions. Maybe simply knocking on the door and calling out would have kept this guy alive. Why is the guy that lives in the house responsible for the first VERBAL contact? I say the home owner should not be held.
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:53 pm
by SC1903A3
It appears the man that was shot was a well known Dallas musician.
From the Dallas Morning News:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... fe1fe.html
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:58 pm
by Renegade
frankie_the_yankee wrote:
I hate to say it, but I would indict the guy.
Maybe he was in fear for his life. You know, there are some around here who mistakenly believe if you are in fear for your life, you can drop the hammer.
Seriously, as you point out in a following post, kicking the door can be seen as attempted unlawful entry, so I think you are right, he will be no-billed unless "there is more to the story." Though I do not think it was "immediately necessary", as required by PC9.32 (3).
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:33 pm
by Wildscar
After reading that story I have no sympathy for the guy. I learned along time ago that you don't hit women. This is a case of karma coming back around.
However if it where my door he was banging on I wouldn't not have shot though the door.
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:26 pm
by frankie_the_yankee
FWIW, when I was living in a 2nd floor apartment in RI (I owned the house.) I had a jerk knock on my door around 3AM one night. I was on the other side of the door with my .45 Gold Cup. The guy asked to see "Fred". I told him that no one named Fred lived here. He banged on the door again and repeated his demand. I sensed a little anger in his voice this time. So I racked the slide and chambered a round and said, "Look. I told you that no Fred lives here."
The next thing I hear are footsteps barrelling down the back stairway as the jerk beat a hasty retreat. Looking out the kitchen window I saw the guy running down my driveway and on down the street.
I figure he was looking for some drug acquaintance and had the wrong house.
Later on I noticed how flimsy the door was. I realized that the guy could have easily burst right through it if he tried. So I decided to do RI's jerks and bums a favor by purchasing a sturdy door.
With a nice sturdy steel door installed, there was much less chance that I would have to shoot anyone.
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:07 pm
by stroo
As explained in another thread, I wouldn't shoot through a door. However, this guy should get no billed.
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:29 pm
by srothstein
From the story, I think the homeowner did everything right. He was awakened by his wife yelling someone is trying to break in. He told the person to stop. He tried to shoot over the person's head by aiming high on the door. He will be no-billed, I think (and hope).
As for the shooting through the door part, I have mixed feelings. If it is a real burglary/home invasion, why would I want to wait for them to get the door open? I might not be able to stop them then, especially if there is more than one or they are also armed. But I have this fear of hitting the wrong person also, and a habit of wanting to know what my target is. I cannot say i would shoot through the door, but I cannot fault another person's tactical decision in those circumstances either.
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:11 am
by Will938
frankie_the_yankee wrote:I take it back. The guy will be no billed. Here's why.
PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection
(b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the
degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary
to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of
unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately
necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable
if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom
the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to
enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle,
or place of business or employment;
The guy banging on the door could be easily construed as "attempting to enter unlawfully and with force". This should meet the requirements for the presumption of reasonableness under the law.
I still wouldn't shoot through a door myself.
Isn't there a distinction between force and deadly force?
Update with more info
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:06 am
by HighVelocity
Musician fatally shot trying to kick in door
By JEFF CARLTON
The Associated Press
JEFFREY CARTER ALBRECHT DALLAS -- Dallas musician Jeffrey Carter Albrecht, a member of the band Edie Brickell & New Bohemians, was shot to death early Monday after trying to kick in the door of his girlfriend's neighbor, police said.
The neighbor, who has not been identified, was asleep in bed when he awakened around 4 a.m. to his wife screaming that someone was breaking into the house, according to a police report.
The neighbor yelled through the door for Albrecht to leave and then fired his handgun through the door.
Albrecht, 34, was struck in the head and died at the scene, police said.
The case is under investigation; no arrests have been made.
Danny Balis, Albrecht's roommate and a fellow member of the Dallas rock band Sorta, said Albrecht had been at his girlfriend's house.
"He left the house and went next door and -- for whatever reason, which we don't know -- he knocked on the neighbor's door," Balis said Monday. "And from what I understand, he was persistent. I don't know if there was a verbal exchange, but the person panicked and fired a shot through the door."
Published and broadcast reports quoted police as saying that Albrecht beat up his girlfriend and then tried to kick down the neighbor's door in a drunken rage.
The couple had no history of domestic violence, but the girlfriend had bruises on her face, police said. She did not suffer serious injury.
Albrecht apparently struck his girlfriend in the face several times and hit her in the back once she fell.
She later managed to lock him out of the house, according to the reports.
His death stunned friends and the North Texas music community. Banging on a door in the middle of the night seems out of character for a man known to be friendly and quiet, friends said.
"He is not a violent person," said Carrie Garcia, Sorta's manager. "He is cool as a cucumber, shy, always wanted to make a joke in a situation that may be a little tense."
Albrecht, who went by his middle name, had been a keyboard player for New Bohemians since 1999, according to the band's Web site.
He also played keyboard and guitar and sang for Sorta, named in 2006 as the best local music act by the Dallas Observer.
Albrecht played several times with Brickell's husband, Paul Simon, Garcia said.
He also played with Texas musician Charlie Sexton, a renowned guitarist.
Albrecht was working on a solo album that Balis called "the best thing he has ever done."
"He was the best musician I've ever played with -- no question," Balis said. "He could play anything. It's a shame not enough people outside of Dallas heard him."
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/222843.html
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:29 am
by Renegade
Will938 wrote:frankie_the_yankee wrote:I take it back. The guy will be no billed. Here's why.
PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection
(b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the
degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary
to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of
unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately
necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable
if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom
the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to
enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle,
or place of business or employment;
The guy banging on the door could be easily construed as "attempting to enter unlawfully and with force". This should meet the requirements for the presumption of reasonableness under the law.
I still wouldn't shoot through a door myself.
Isn't there a distinction between force and deadly force?
Yes, that is what I was referring to when I wrote:
I do not think it was "immediately necessary", as required by PC9.32 (3).
above. Deadly force has the additional qualifier of being "immediately necessary".
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:29 am
by HankB
When I was living in an apartment, I was once woken up in the wee hours by someone banging on my door . . . I stationed myself to one side with my S&W M29 - finger off the trigger!! - and told them, in a loud voice, to go away.
They did - probably a couple of inebriated college boys looking for a buddy.
I did NOT shoot through the door - but if they had forced entry, it would've been the end for someone.
In this case, the perp (and yes, neighbor, musician, or whatever, he was a perp) was not just banging violently on the door, he was kicking it as well.
You only kick a door if you're trying to force entry.
I don't know all the details, but from what's written, I'd have a really, really hard time indicting the homeowner.
Re: Update with more info
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:02 am
by Wildscar
HighVelocity wrote:"He is not a violent person," said Carrie Garcia, Sorta's manager. "He is cool as a cucumber, shy, always wanted to make a joke in a situation that may be a little tense."
Why does this line have to go in every story of this nature? He was the one that was responsible for it all but is be portrayed as the innocent victim.
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:21 am
by SC1903A3
Here's a good one for ya. Fox cable news was comparing Albrecht to Janis Joplin this morning. The old tragic life story "wah wah wah". What ever happened to personal responsibility. It seems like every time someone with a name for themselves applies for the Darwin award, people will try to excuse their behavior saying he wasn't that kind of person. Well he did do it so it would seem me that he was that kind of person. The people who will mourn his passing will have my sympathy but thats all.
