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I also would like to add just because they are a church member and have a LTC doesn’t mean I would want them on any kind of team. Speaking from experience as a Pastor.

Keith B wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:49 pm We all know it’s easy to armchair quarterback after an event and point out mistakes made. You could more than likely do that to one of Hockheim’s encounters. It is VERY easy for someone who spent a career doing security to point out errors, especially as said, this is a volunteer group of church members, not Seal Team Six.

That said, the only really critical mistake I believe was made was to allow the guy, dressed like he was, to be in with the congregation. They should have separated him and tried to make sure he was innocuous before letting him into the crowd.

BUT (BIG BUT), that is a tough task, even for experienced security personnel. They knew who he was, and since he had been there before, kinda let their guard down some and let him mingle, even in his state of dress.

Bottom line, once it started, I don’t think it could have been handled much better, even by a team of ‘professionals’.

yes! they knew who he was. it was initially a case of "he won't do anything bad", maybe they thought"he needs some help"....then it did go bad.....

I'm not going to jump into the deep end on this but we also have to understand that we are churches, places that welcome the hurt, the confused, the lost. It is a fine line we walk trying to be welcoming and trying to be safe. There is no doubt that things could have been done differently but that is the luxury we have being Monday morning QBs. If I had been in the same situation, as head of our safety team, I can't honestly say I would have done things any differently. Maybe I would have but I don't know all the details. I do know that as I watched the video it was easy to put myself in any of the members roles. The auditorium looks very much like ours. Same layout, same pews, we even had the orange upholstery for a while. I often help serve communion from the back corner. I have sat on the back pew watching a POI. I have stood across the way scanning for threats. So it is not hard for me to see myself following the same procedure.

Will we do things differently now, absolutely, but we also have to be very discerning that we don't get in the way of our true responsibility, trying to seek and save the lost. I pray that if I turn someone away from our doors in error that the Lord pricks their heart so they will still search for Him and, secondly, that He forgives me as I try, in my frail human wisdom, to do the best I can fulfilling my ministry.

If anyone wants to start a thread dealing with "best practices" for volunteer church security teams, please do so. However, if you plan to post something attacking Jack Wilson on this thread, don't waste your time. It will be deleted.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 pm If anyone wants to start a thread dealing with "best practices" for volunteer church security teams, please do so. However, if you plan to post something attacking Jack Wilson on this thread, don't waste your time. It will be deleted.

Chas.

Thank you for that.

They/he saved countless lives... was it possible to save 1 or 2 more? Possibly, but let's not lose sight of the fact that they aren't the US secret service, they are a volunteer group of parishioners that did the best they could. My hat's off to them.

troglodyte wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:48 am

Will we do things differently now, absolutely, but we also have to be very discerning that we don't get in the way of our true responsibility, trying to seek and save the lost.

That's a good and mature way to look at it. Maybe it's one of those things that if you ID someone who is of interest, have a member of the team that can take them to another area to pray with them or more proactively offer them help... and that would also separate them from the rest of the Church.

No easy answers but I applaud you for keeping sight of the Lord's work, in addition to keeping the body safe.

flechero wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:10 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:56 pm If anyone wants to start a thread dealing with "best practices" for volunteer church security teams, please do so. However, if you plan to post something attacking Jack Wilson on this thread, don't waste your time. It will be deleted.

Chas.

Thank you for that.

They/he saved countless lives... was it possible to save 1 or 2 more? Possibly, but let's not lose sight of the fact that they aren't the US secret service, they are a volunteer group of parishioners that did the best they could. My hat's off to them.

troglodyte wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:48 am

Will we do things differently now, absolutely, but we also have to be very discerning that we don't get in the way of our true responsibility, trying to seek and save the lost.

That's a good and mature way to look at it. Maybe it's one of those things that if you ID someone who is of interest, have a member of the team that can take them to another area to pray with them or more proactively offer them help... and that would also separate them from the rest of the Church.

No easy answers but I applaud you for keeping sight of the Lord's work, in addition to keeping the body safe.

We can learn much from after action reports and the video is invaluable for training purposes. Just as every airline crash makes commercial aviation safer, I hope this event results in volunteer security personnel carrying out their duties in a safer and more effective manner. Whether our experience in doing anything is great or small, we can always learn from others' experience. Analyzing the event so we can learn from it is fine, but attacking a brave man who saved countless lives is not going to happen here on the Forum.

Chas.

Pawpaw wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:25 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7UDrh7OP4A&t=300s

Old Guys. Don't mess with the Old Guys. Old Guys with guns.

Pawpaw wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:25 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7UDrh7OP4A&t=300s

Great interview. Thanks!!

anygunanywhere wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:17 pm

Pawpaw wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:25 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7UDrh7OP4A&t=300s

Old Guys. Don't mess with the Old Guys. Old Guys with guns.

i like hearin’ from old guys. There’s a reason they are old.i too want to be old one day.

TurningPoint USA interview with Jack Wilson.
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/01/ ... ur-rights/

He's exactly on target..again. It's evil, not guns that are the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iNJ51YfP1U

I’m really surprised that either one of them agreed to unholster their weapons. I’m about 99.5% certain I would have declined.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/ ... e-charges/

Grand jury decides not to indict volunteer who shot church shooter dead with some of the best under stress marksmanship we have seen.

DA said they made the right decision.

I’m sort of surprised that this was sent to a grand jury. Is it required?

philip964 wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:58 pm https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/ ... e-charges/

Grand jury decides not to indict volunteer who shot church shooter dead with some of the best under stress marksmanship we have seen.

DA said they made the right decision.

I’m sort of surprised that this was sent to a grand jury. Is it required?

The Grand Jury decision was a no Brainer. Even a Liberal could understand it.

OneGun wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:19 pm

philip964 wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:58 pm https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/ ... e-charges/

Grand jury decides not to indict volunteer who shot church shooter dead with some of the best under stress marksmanship we have seen.

DA said they made the right decision.

I’m sort of surprised that this was sent to a grand jury. Is it required?

The Grand Jury decision was a no Brainer. Even a Liberal could understand it.

Yeah. I agree. Not even libtards could have an issue here. Thank goodness the perp wasn't black. They would claim racism.