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Grayling813 wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:36 pm She also said the jury can consider "castle doctrine" in their deliberations. Not sure how the castle doctrine applies if you are entering a residence other than your own and killing the lawful resident.

Because the defense claim is that she thought she was entering her "castle". Here's a good article along with some comments where it is discussed (article is back from June): https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/06/l ... recording/

AndyC wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:41 pm I'm predicting - Guilty, Manslaughter.

I really don't care about her job, about the difference between a home or a rented apartment.... she negligently killed an innocent person inside their own place - period.

If I were on that jury I would go with man slaughter and a light sentence of which at least 18 months in prison and a very long parole. Her job is gone. She will need to find a more appropriate career that suites her abilities. Being a cop was not her strength. She proved that already.

03Lightningrocks wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:51 pm

AndyC wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:41 pm I'm predicting - Guilty, Manslaughter.

I really don't care about her job, about the difference between a home or a rented apartment.... she negligently killed an innocent person inside their own place - period.

If I were on that jury I would go with man slaughter and a light sentence of which at least 18 months in prison and a very long parole. Her job is gone. She will need to find a more appropriate career that suites her abilities. Being a cop was not her strength. She proved that already.

Manslaughter is a second degree felony:

Texas Penal Code wrote:Sec. 12.33. SECOND DEGREE FELONY PUNISHMENT.
(a) An individual adjudged guilty of a felony of the second degree shall be punished by imprisonment in the Texas Department of Criminal Justice for any term of not more than 20 years or less than 2 years.

(b) In addition to imprisonment, an individual adjudged guilty of a felony of the second degree may be punished by a fine not to exceed $10,000.

If she is convicted, I would probably judge on the lower end of the spectrum for prison time (probably 5 years). Her life is already pretty well ruined by this point and sticking her in prison for a LONG time does nobody any good. She can't be a police officer any more and having a felony conviction can make it quite hard to find jobs.

The question I have to ask is, what would I be facing if I had made the same mistake... Probably a MUCH stiffer sentence.

Papa_Tiger wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:10 pm

03Lightningrocks wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:51 pm

AndyC wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:41 pm I'm predicting - Guilty, Manslaughter.

I really don't care about her job, about the difference between a home or a rented apartment.... she negligently killed an innocent person inside their own place - period.

If I were on that jury I would go with man slaughter and a light sentence of which at least 18 months in prison and a very long parole. Her job is gone. She will need to find a more appropriate career that suites her abilities. Being a cop was not her strength. She proved that already.

Manslaughter is a second degree felony:

Texas Penal Code wrote:Sec. 12.33. SECOND DEGREE FELONY PUNISHMENT.
(a) An individual adjudged guilty of a felony of the second degree shall be punished by imprisonment in the Texas Department of Criminal Justice for any term of not more than 20 years or less than 2 years.

(b) In addition to imprisonment, an individual adjudged guilty of a felony of the second degree may be punished by a fine not to exceed $10,000.

If she is convicted, I would probably judge on the lower end of the spectrum for prison time (probably 5 years). Her life is already pretty well ruined by this point and sticking her in prison for a LONG time does nobody any good. She can't be a police officer any more and having a felony conviction can make it quite hard to find jobs.

The question I have to ask is, what would I be facing if I had made the same mistake... Probably a MUCH stiffer sentence.

5 years is what, 2 years or so of actual confinement, right? That sounds about right given the entirety of the situation (underlying mistake, etc). I'm not sure what will actually happen, though.

And I would hope that this same sentence would apply to you or anyone else. Including someone in the exact opposite scenario (civilian mistakenly enters LEO home and kills them).

I'm also wondering whether the defense has given ammo (pardon the pun) to a civil lawsuit against the apartment owners by stressing how easy it was to mistakenly enter the wrong apartment given the building layout, etc.

I haven't been able to follow the trial in detail, but I just went through some news stories, and … whatever happened to the neighbors who claimed that Guyger pounded on the door and called Botham Jean by name? That featured in more than one story (and I believe in this thread too?), yet the only testimony from neighbors I found were two women whose first inkling something was not right was hearing two loud sounds that took them a moment to identify as gunshots. At least one of them explicitly testified that she did not hear anyone shouting/pounding before the gun shots.

Also found this:

Jurors on Tuesday and Wednesday heard from Texas Ranger David Armstrong, who led the investigation into the shooting. Armstrong testified that his team interviewed 297 of the 349 residents of South Side Flats.

He said 46 of them told investigators they had walked to the wrong floor and put their key in someone else’s door, according to The Dallas Morning News.

I think she screwed up, and she should be accountable for that, but...manslaughter, not murder.

I have lived in NYC when a youth, large apartment buildings with many floors that all look alike. I never made the mistake of going to the wrong floor or wrong apartment. This case is not murder but what we have is a fine young man killed by a police officer too stupid to go into her own apartment. 2 years enough? Let's say it was your child killed. Would the negligence of this officer satisfy you if it was a 2 year sentence. Not for me. If my son was killed by a negligent cop I would want a longer sentence. Even more, would this person be dead if he were white? Very disturbing case. Let's reverse the situation, the guy is in his apartment, a police officer walks in and starts shooting but he shoots back and kills the cop. Is he guilty of a crime? I think not. He was in his castle, she claims she thought she was in her castle. Only one can be right. The sentence could be 2-20 for manslaughter. I lean at least 10 for this outrageous shooting.

ELB wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:15 pm I haven't been able to follow the trial in detail, but I just went through some news stories, and … whatever happened to the neighbors who claimed that Guyger pounded on the door and called Botham Jean by name? That featured in more than one story (and I believe in this thread too?), yet the only testimony from neighbors I found were two women whose first inkling something was not right was hearing two loud sounds that took them a moment to identify as gunshots. At least one of them explicitly testified that she did not hear anyone shouting/pounding before the gun shots.

Also found this:

Jurors on Tuesday and Wednesday heard from Texas Ranger David Armstrong, who led the investigation into the shooting. Armstrong testified that his team interviewed 297 of the 349 residents of South Side Flats.

He said 46 of them told investigators they had walked to the wrong floor and put their key in someone else’s door, according to The Dallas Morning News.

I think she screwed up, and she should be accountable for that, but...manslaughter, not murder.

I have worked in Dallas. The quote does not surprise me.

ELB wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:15 pm I haven't been able to follow the trial in detail, but I just went through some news stories, and … whatever happened to the neighbors who claimed that Guyger pounded on the door and called Botham Jean by name? That featured in more than one story (and I believe in this thread too?), yet the only testimony from neighbors I found were two women whose first inkling something was not right was hearing two loud sounds that took them a moment to identify as gunshots. At least one of them explicitly testified that she did not hear anyone shouting/pounding before the gun shots.

Also found this:

Jurors on Tuesday and Wednesday heard from Texas Ranger David Armstrong, who led the investigation into the shooting. Armstrong testified that his team interviewed 297 of the 349 residents of South Side Flats.

He said 46 of them told investigators they had walked to the wrong floor and put their key in someone else’s door, according to The Dallas Morning News.

I think she screwed up, and she should be accountable for that, but...manslaughter, not murder.

And none of them shot the other tenant.

great discussion points,
2 years seems a bit thin.
the qualification to meet murder over manslaughter is not going to be met.
But i cant get past the entering of an apartment that was decorated different from hers and still somehow trying to convince the jury she was in her own apartment.
we lived in an apartment building once that on each floor the units were identical. but each one smelled and looked different inside to match the respective tenant. Did she not smell or see the difference? aren't police trained to notice differences and their surroundings?
justice is to be blind and i agree if the roles were switched, what would be the outcome? 20 years or more?
i have a very hard time seeing it as anything other than flat out murder.
but then again my door is locked when i am home.

You can 'see' what you expect to see. Who hasn't walked to the wrong car in a parking lot, got off on the wrong floor, went to the wrong door, kissed the wrong girl, etc., etc., etc., . We're all human and capable of error.

However, a man is dead who should not be and it is her fault. Her gun, her bullet, her mistake, her responsibility.

Manslaughter is the appropriate charge.

Attorney Andrew Branca posted his comments on this case:
https://lawofselfdefense.com/decisive-e ... acquittal/
< Paywalled after three days >

There are really only two relevant questions in this case of Amber Guyger shooting and killing Botham Jean.

First, if she had been entering her own apartment and found Jean unlawfully present, would her shooting of him have been lawful?

If not, she ought to be criminally liable for killing Jean.

If so, the second question is, was her mistake in entering the wrong apartment, believing it to be her own, a reasonable mistake?

If not, she again ought to be criminally liable for killing Jean.

If the answer to both questions is in the affirmative, however, what we have here is a tragic “awful but lawful” shooting in self-defense. Defenders are not required to make perfect decisions in self-defense, they are merely required to make reasonable decisions, and the reasonably mistaken killing of an innocent person is simply not a crime. (It may, of course, still carry civil liability, but that’s a separate matter.)

Scott B. wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:49 pm You can 'see' what you expect to see. Who hasn't walked to the wrong car in a parking lot, got off on the wrong floor, went to the wrong door, kissed the wrong girl, etc., etc., etc., . We're all human and capable of error.

However, a man is dead who should not be and it is her fault. Her gun, her bullet, her mistake, her responsibility.

Manslaughter is the appropriate charge.

Originally, I agreed that manslaughter was the appropriate charge. I was just reading the Penal Code again and I think she will be convicted of murder due to her own testimony at the trial.

The difference between murder and manslaughter is only the culpable mental state. If you intend to kill or seriously injure or if you do an act that you know will kill or seriously injure, you have committed murder. If you recklessly do the same act, you commit manslaughter. From the news clips I saw, at one point she was asked if she intended to kill when she pulled the trigger and she answered "yes, but".

That means she had the culpable mental state required for murder.

Given the totality of the circumstances, I think manslaughter would have been the most appropriate charge. But I can no longer fault the DA for going for the murder charge.

srothstein wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 pm That means she had the culpable mental state required for murder.

Wouldn't that then apply to anyone who shoots another person? That seem like a really broad brush.

C-dub wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:14 pm

srothstein wrote: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 pm That means she had the culpable mental state required for murder.

Wouldn't that then apply to anyone who shoots another person? That seem like a really broad brush.

I believe it does that is why you should never shoot to kill or even to wound. You are wanting to “stop” the threat.