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Does anyone know the gun that commerical pilots are now carrying? Just curious, I thought I read it was a .40 caliber.

baylor wrote:Does anyone know the gun that commerical pilots are now carrying? Just curious, I thought I read it was a .40 caliber.

According to this guy, the FFDO program uses H&K .40 pistols.
http://www.crimefilenews.com/2007/12/ts ... f-air.html

He identifies the pistol maker in the comments to the post. I find it interesting that he was complaining about this holster/padlock system back in December 07, before this US Airs incident.

I find it even more interesting that the following comment was added to the post on 31 Mar:

Anonymous said...
I can't reveal my identity since I am an active FFDO, but I agree with most of the opinions about the weapon and carriage system foisted upon us by the bureaucratocracy. In the beginning, TSA openly declared they would never create an armed pilot force, and yielded only when directly ordered to by Congress. They set out to create a recruitment, training, and operational climate designed to discourage pilots from volunteering. In the words of a TSA official, "No pilot in his right mind would ever go through this, so if you go through this, you are not in your right mind" --- and therefore will lose your FAA medical certificate and your career. I have nothing but praise for the field-level trainers, but the DC powersuits have been obstructionist from the beginning, from choosing an unnecessarily large, clumsy, and cumbersome sidearm to the most ridiculous carriage system ever devised (one that guarantees incidents like this) to withholding training which would allow us to carry our weapons in a safe and sane manner, to making sure we are easily identifiable as we enter the sterile (secured) airport area, and more which I cannot reveal. One bit of evidence: under the three previous transport/carriage systems, there were no unintentional discharges that I know of. The USAir incident is the fifth unintentional discharge I am aware of using the current locking holster system. Excuses can be made regarding improper usage of the holster and lock, but any system which produces these kind of results is incredibly flawed. I hope it doesn't take a fatality to get this idiocy changed.

March 31, 2008 6:51 PM

I have not clue as to its authenticity, but might make an interesting FOIA expedition for someone with the time and motivation...

From another forum:


TSA requires this holster on the flight deck and that a lock be put on before landing. Check where the hole for the lock is placed on this holster.

F.D.O. w/ Lock Hole

The Article:
APSA - Airline Pilots Security Alliance

Blame Shifts to TSA in Pilot’s Gun Mishap

Airline pilots and federal flight deck officers (FFDO) say ill-conceived TSA weapons handling rules were to blame for the accidental discharge of a pilot’s firearm in the cockpit of a US Airways jet last weekend.

Federal officers familiar with the investigation say they repeatedly warned TSA officials that an unprecedented TSA requirement that pilots take off and lock up their guns before leaving the cockpit is manifestly unsafe and would result in accidents.

“The pilot was trying to lock his gun and remove the holster in an airplane going 300 miles per hour in preparation for landing and the padlock depressed the trigger,� said a federal flight deck officer who declined to be identified.

“TSA knew this could happen but didn’t get rid of the requirement.�

A special working group within the Federal Air Marshal Service recommended TSA adopt standard federal weapons carriage rules for flight officers last year to prevent accidents. But, TSA officials declined to implement the group’s recommendation.

“Every other federal law enforcement officer in the air and on the ground carries his gun concealed on his person where he can control it. And he never touches it except in an emergency, because the less it is handled, the better,� said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance.

“TSA’s got these pilots taking off and putting on their guns 10 times a day. It’s a recipe for disaster and that’s why no other agency does it.�

Mackett says TSA’s unilateral policy that pilots’ guns be carried ‘off-body’, has resulted in numerous guns being lost or stolen, and now in an accident.

“We have to have the FFDO program since screeners miss so many weapons at checkpoints and air marshals will never protect more than 1 or 2% of flights. But, TSA can’t continuously ignore standard procedures proven over thousands of other law

lrb111 wrote:A pilot shoots one snake on the plane, and everyone starts second guessing. sheesh!

I don't see why a good IWB holster and a nice HK USP Compact, or Sig 229 or something similar couldn't be used. All the flight officers I've ever seen in the airport are wearing a suit type coat that's part of their uniform anyway. It's not that hard to carry concealed, thousands of us do it every day. I can surely see how assinine requirements from TSA could have led to this, especially after reading the preceeding few posts.

Just saw this demonstration of how the pilot
could have performed the AD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTODo6yxRWI

TxD wrote:Just saw this demonstration of how the pilot
could have performed the AD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTODo6yxRWI

Yep, very poor design for any type of holster.

Update:

Group: Pilot whose gun went off will be fired

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/17/pilot.gun/index.html

(CNN) -- An US Airways pilot who aviation officials say accidentally fired his handgun in the cockpit during a flight will be fired, a spokesman for a flight officers group said.

The airline has begun the termination process for Capt. James Langenhahn, said Mike Karn, vice president of the Federal Flight Deck Officers Association.

Langenhahn told police that he was stowing his gun in the cockpit of a jet preparing to land in Charlotte, North Carolina, last month when it accidentally fired. The federal Transportation Security Administration is investigating the incident.

Calls to Langenhahn's home in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, were not immediately returned.

In an e-mail, US Airways representative Morgan Durrant said the company's policies prevent it from commenting publicly on a personnel matter.

Karn said his group, which represents pilots who are federally trained and allowed to carry firearms on flights, will fight the termination.

"This was accidental not intentional," Karn said. "This is not the way to treat a long-term pilot."

He said he did not know how long Langenhahn, 55, has been a pilot for US Airways but said he is a veteran with the airline.

The bullet from the H&K USP .40-caliber handgun penetrated the left side of the jet's fuselage but did not hit any crucial wiring or instrumentation, the TSA said.

The gun discharge was the first public incident of its kind in the history of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program, which has trained thousands of pilots to carry weapons in an effort to improve aviation safety.

Created in the wake of the September 11 attacks, the program was approved by Congress as part of the Homeland Security Act on November 25, 2002

Keith B wrote:

TxD wrote:Just saw this demonstration of how the pilot
could have performed the AD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTODo6yxRWI

Yep, very poor design for any type of holster.

Private Investigator from the Chicago area with no clue of procedures. Somebody trying to get his 15 minutes of fame through Youtube.

73Driver wrote:

Keith B wrote:

TxD wrote:Just saw this demonstration of how the pilot
could have performed the AD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTODo6yxRWI

Yep, very poor design for any type of holster.

Private Investigator from the Chicago area with no clue of procedures. Somebody trying to get his 15 minutes of fame through Youtube.

More like anonymous, faceless person not seeking any fame, posting a very plausible scenario.

The problem with the holster is the padlock (and the hole to accommodate it). We've all known that since the first reports on this incident. TSA is an idiotic agency from the top down, and the airline is reprehensible for their decision to fire this pilot.

I suspect that his age was a factor in their decision. At 55, he's quite close to drawing a pension.

KBCraig wrote:

73Driver wrote: Private Investigator from the Chicago area with no clue of procedures. Somebody trying to get his 15 minutes of fame through Youtube.

More like anonymous, faceless person not seeking any fame, posting a very plausible scenario.

The problem with the holster is the padlock (and the hole to accommodate it). We've all known that since the first reports on this incident. TSA is an idiotic agency from the top down, and the airline is reprehensible for their decision to fire this pilot.

I suspect that his age was a factor in their decision. At 55, he's quite close to drawing a pension.

My comment on the Youtube post was a direct quote from an Air Marshall and only directed at the video. The Captain (73Driver, what might that mean?) MUST be informed of their presence on the aircraft prior to gate departure and ocasionally we talk with them prior to push back, depending on the situation. This has been a topic of discussion lately, ya think?

The holster is a problem, but it sure beats the old lock box. The H&K with it's black trigger, inside a black holster, inside a dark cockpit, hummmm. There is a situation waiting to happen!

Doing anything non safety related below 10,000 feet is prohibited by FAR 121 " all activities in the flight deck (PC ugh) not required for the safe operation of the aircraft during critical phases of flight is prohibited. These prohibited items include non-safety related radio calls, PA's, logbook entries, and non-essential conversation... Critical phases of flight include all ground operation involving taxiing the aircraft, takeoff, and landing, and all other flight operations below 10,000 feet MSL."

If "non-esstential conversation" is prohibited I would assume the FFDO's SOP probably prohibit's the disarming of same. I agree with you that USAir went overboard on firing the Captain for the violation of an FAR, normally a gross/willful/negligent violation is a $10,000 civil penality (max) and up to 90 day suspension of a pilot's license (3 months without a paycheck....ouch!!!) but after the last bancruptcy I doubt USAir pilots have much of a pension left not covered by the PBGC.