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Wow, there are a lot of factors being discussed here....

Like sar, I worked in a trauma center for a number of years, in the ER, on the shift where the Pasadena (California) Knife and Gun Club was most active. I saw, on average, 1 gunshot patient a day for 5 years. Let's see... that's approximately 1300 gunshot victims (taking into account 2 days off a week). Realistically, it was probably fewer than that, but it sure seemed like that many. Some days there might not have been any. On other days I might have seen as many as 5 or 6. The vast majority of these patients were shot in one part of town, which happened to have a predominantly black and hispanic population, and overwhelmingly financially on the fringes of destitution. There was a lot of gang activity. Anyway, I've seen enough gunshot patients to form my own opinions, regardless of statistics.

If you punch a .22 caliber hole in a person's descending aorta, they will exsanguinate into their abdominal cavity in a few seconds and be dead on the floor. Their heart may still beat for a minute or two more, but without any blood pressure, he is down and out. In the intervening seconds between being hit, and being down, the loss of BP is so rapid as to incapacitate the patient almost instantly. That person will be DOA. On the other hand, I have seen a patient with six .38 caliber gunshot wounds to the lung fields (entry wounds in back) actually walk into the ER and ask for help, saying "I THINK I've been shot." However, I've also seen people who shrugged off being shot by a .22, including in the head; and I've seen people shot in the extremities with a large caliber and it took them out of the fight.

My personal conclusion is that shot placement and caliber are equally important. Regarding capacity: all other things being equal, it goes without saying that the person with more bullets has some advantage. But, just as the odds that one will actually have to fire one's weapon are very slim, it is equally true that a civilian involved in an actual shooting will not have to fire more than a few rounds. Thus, the odds of a civilian being involved in a running gun battle where dozens of rounds are expended are so close to zero as to be statistically irrelevant. At least, that is my opinion. Never the less, I carry backup ammo for every weapon I carry.

That being said, my personal philosophy is to carry the biggest caliber I can conceal, given the dress requirements in which I find myself. Most of the time, that means a Kimber UC II. If that is not practical, then it is a 642 Airweight. If not the 642, then the smaller, flatter, P3AT.

Step two is to make sure that I can shoot each of them well enough at the range. So far, I believe that I have succeeded in that.

Step three, for me, is to take some kind of tactical training to maximize my ability to deploy and fire my weapon under duress. The human brain may be the most effective weapon you have, and I believe that this third component is easily as important, if not more so, than caliber, shot placement, and capacity combined. Unfortunately for me, that is simply not something I can afford to pay for right now. I simply lack the funds to do it. But when that becomes a financial possibility, you can bet that this component will be high on my list of priorities.

Even so, regardless of what I'm carrying or my level of training, I operate on the assumption that - unless I'm having my home invaded - I will always have the tactical disadvantage because I'm not the one deciding when to initiate the threat that will result in my having to react to it. So the very best defense I can have is learning to live in Condition Yellow.

Well said, my good man!

flintknapper wrote: Carry 9 specs:

Height.....4.75"
Length.....6.5"
Weight.....24 ozs.
Capacity.....8+1 (9mm)


Kimber Ultra Carry II specs:

Height…..4.75”
Length…..6.80”
Weight…..25 ozs.
Capacity…..7+1 (.45 acp)

S&W SW9VE specs:

Height.....5.375"
Length.....7.125"
Weight.....21.4 ozs.
Capacity.....16+1 (9mm)

IMHO ... marginally bigger gun, 2x the capacity.

substitute G19 it's nearly identical in these specs only 1 fewer rounds capacity and 3/8" shorter in height. or just about any other compact double-stack poly 9mm is in the 15+ rounds capacity, lighter-weight than a 1911-style steel or alu frame gun and very close to the same dimensions.

I could put in the specs for a G26, P11, P111, M&P9c etc., subcompacts with 12+ round capacity and even smaller size.

IMHO if you can conceal one of these guns, you can conceal one with 2x the firepower.

+2 The Annoyed Man!

Another aspect of training is to learn basic stress control breathing. Anything that can lower your heart rate will help keep you keep your fine motor control thus improving your repsonse in a high stress situation.

mr.72 wrote:

flintknapper wrote: Carry 9 specs:

Height.....4.75"
Length.....6.5"
Weight.....24 ozs.
Capacity.....8+1 (9mm)


Kimber Ultra Carry II specs:

Height…..4.75”
Length…..6.80”
Weight…..25 ozs.
Capacity…..7+1 (.45 acp)

S&W SW9VE specs:

Height.....5.375"
Length.....7.125"
Weight.....21.4 ozs.
Capacity.....16+1 (9mm)

IMHO ... marginally bigger gun, 2x the capacity.

substitute G19 it's nearly identical in these specs only 1 fewer rounds capacity and 3/8" shorter in height. or just about any other compact double-stack poly 9mm is in the 15+ rounds capacity, lighter-weight than a 1911-style steel or alu frame gun and very close to the same dimensions.

I could put in the specs for a G26, P11, P111, M&P9c etc., subcompacts with 12+ round capacity and even smaller size.

IMHO if you can conceal one of these guns, you can conceal one with 2x the firepower.

Good information, but you left out the important part of my post:

flintknapper wrote:

If you like a 1911 platform....

The Annoyed Man wrote:Wow, there are a lot of factors being discussed here....

Like sar, I worked in a trauma center for a number of years, in the ER, on the shift where the Pasadena (California) Knife and Gun Club was most active. I saw, on average, 1 gunshot patient a day for 5 years. Let's see... that's approximately 1300 gunshot victims (taking into account 2 days off a week). Realistically, it was probably fewer than that, but it sure seemed like that many. Some days there might not have been any. On other days I might have seen as many as 5 or 6. The vast majority of these patients were shot in one part of town, which happened to have a predominantly black and hispanic population, and overwhelmingly financially on the fringes of destitution. There was a lot of gang activity. Anyway, I've seen enough gunshot patients to form my own opinions, regardless of statistics.

If you punch a .22 caliber hole in a person's descending aorta, they will exsanguinate into their abdominal cavity in a few seconds and be dead on the floor. Their heart may still beat for a minute or two more, but without any blood pressure, he is down and out. In the intervening seconds between being hit, and being down, the loss of BP is so rapid as to incapacitate the patient almost instantly. That person will be DOA. On the other hand, I have seen a patient with six .38 caliber gunshot wounds to the lung fields (entry wounds in back) actually walk into the ER and ask for help, saying "I THINK I've been shot." However, I've also seen people who shrugged off being shot by a .22, including in the head; and I've seen people shot in the extremities with a large caliber and it took them out of the fight.

My personal conclusion is that shot placement and caliber are equally important. Regarding capacity: all other things being equal, it goes without saying that the person with more bullets has some advantage. But, just as the odds that one will actually have to fire one's weapon are very slim, it is equally true that a civilian involved in an actual shooting will not have to fire more than a few rounds. Thus, the odds of a civilian being involved in a running gun battle where dozens of rounds are expended are so close to zero as to be statistically irrelevant. At least, that is my opinion. Never the less, I carry backup ammo for every weapon I carry.

That being said, my personal philosophy is to carry the biggest caliber I can conceal, given the dress requirements in which I find myself. Most of the time, that means a Kimber UC II. If that is not practical, then it is a 642 Airweight. If not the 642, then the smaller, flatter, P3AT.

Step two is to make sure that I can shoot each of them well enough at the range. So far, I believe that I have succeeded in that.

Step three, for me, is to take some kind of tactical training to maximize my ability to deploy and fire my weapon under duress. The human brain may be the most effective weapon you have, and I believe that this third component is easily as important, if not more so, than caliber, shot placement, and capacity combined. Unfortunately for me, that is simply not something I can afford to pay for right now. I simply lack the funds to do it. But when that becomes a financial possibility, you can bet that this component will be high on my list of priorities.

Even so, regardless of what I'm carrying or my level of training, I operate on the assumption that - unless I'm having my home invaded - I will always have the tactical disadvantage because I'm not the one deciding when to initiate the threat that will result in my having to react to it. So the very best defense I can have is learning to live in Condition Yellow.

Thanks, Annoyed Man - great post!

My experience dovetails with yours on the following points:

1. There are no magic bullets
2. Any bullet that puts a hole in exactly the right spot will disable someone right quick. The trick is to be able to get it there first time, every time.
3. Small bullets may produce big results, and big bullets can produce small results in individual cases. However, in most cases, the reverse is true.
4. There are so many variables in bullet wounds that virtually any result is possible with any bullet. The best you can do is go with the ones that deliver the results you want more of the time than the others.
5. Since you can't control all the factors in an incident, it makes sense to stack whatever you can in your favor. This includes carrying the largest caliber weapon you can conceal and enough ammunition to handle even a statistically unlikely incident, because even an unlikely incident that happens to you has a 100% probability at that moment. (This means 1 or 2 spare magazines, not hundred cartridge bandoliers).
6. There's no such thing as too much training. There is such a thing as too little.
7. Remaining alert is a critical part of your defensive strategy. No gun or bullet is going to be likely to be of much help if you don't see an incident coming before the bad guy's moment of commitment to the crime.

I have compromised. I own several Kimbers. My main carry piece used to be a Tactical Ultra II .45. My main carry piece now is an Ultra Aegis II 9mm. After hours of contemplative deliberations, soul searching and self-questioning, my reason for making the change to this caliber as an everyday carry became crystal clear...I Shoot It Better! That's it.

I love the .45's and I still carry one often but, for everyday carry, it's now a 9.

p.s. I also ride a MOTORCYCLE

The Annoyed Man wrote:Wow, there are a lot of factors being discussed here....

Like sar, I worked in a trauma center for a number of years, in the ER, on the shift where the Pasadena (California) Knife and Gun Club was most active. I saw, on average, 1 gunshot patient a day for 5 years. Let's see... that's approximately 1300 gunshot victims (taking into account 2 days off a week). Realistically, it was probably fewer than that, but it sure seemed like that many. Some days there might not have been any. On other days I might have seen as many as 5 or 6. The vast majority of these patients were shot in one part of town, which happened to have a predominantly black and hispanic population, and overwhelmingly financially on the fringes of destitution. There was a lot of gang activity. Anyway, I've seen enough gunshot patients to form my own opinions, regardless of statistics.

If you punch a .22 caliber hole in a person's descending aorta, they will exsanguinate into their abdominal cavity in a few seconds and be dead on the floor. Their heart may still beat for a minute or two more, but without any blood pressure, he is down and out. In the intervening seconds between being hit, and being down, the loss of BP is so rapid as to incapacitate the patient almost instantly. That person will be DOA. On the other hand, I have seen a patient with six .38 caliber gunshot wounds to the lung fields (entry wounds in back) actually walk into the ER and ask for help, saying "I THINK I've been shot." However, I've also seen people who shrugged off being shot by a .22, including in the head; and I've seen people shot in the extremities with a large caliber and it took them out of the fight.

My personal conclusion is that shot placement and caliber are equally important. Regarding capacity: all other things being equal, it goes without saying that the person with more bullets has some advantage. But, just as the odds that one will actually have to fire one's weapon are very slim, it is equally true that a civilian involved in an actual shooting will not have to fire more than a few rounds. Thus, the odds of a civilian being involved in a running gun battle where dozens of rounds are expended are so close to zero as to be statistically irrelevant. At least, that is my opinion. Never the less, I carry backup ammo for every weapon I carry.

That being said, my personal philosophy is to carry the biggest caliber I can conceal, given the dress requirements in which I find myself. Most of the time, that means a Kimber UC II. If that is not practical, then it is a 642 Airweight. If not the 642, then the smaller, flatter, P3AT.

Step two is to make sure that I can shoot each of them well enough at the range. So far, I believe that I have succeeded in that.

Step three, for me, is to take some kind of tactical training to maximize my ability to deploy and fire my weapon under duress. The human brain may be the most effective weapon you have, and I believe that this third component is easily as important, if not more so, than caliber, shot placement, and capacity combined. Unfortunately for me, that is simply not something I can afford to pay for right now. I simply lack the funds to do it. But when that becomes a financial possibility, you can bet that this component will be high on my list of priorities.

Even so, regardless of what I'm carrying or my level of training, I operate on the assumption that - unless I'm having my home invaded - I will always have the tactical disadvantage because I'm not the one deciding when to initiate the threat that will result in my having to react to it. So the very best defense I can have is learning to live in Condition Yellow.

Thanks, Annoyed Man, that was one great post and definitely puts it all into the right perspective!

-geo