Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:08 pm
Golly gosh , where to begin!
Let me try to swerve back on topic.
Hey GigAg!
I really hate net forums like this as a way to discuss these issues because it's a relatively slow medium to converse in.
And since all are CHL's and have a signed,sworn Knowledge Of Laws affadavit on file with DPS
, we all are fully and completely aware of Ch.46 and Ch. 9 of the Texas Penal Code. Hey we all know the answers. 
Or at least we have signed that we do. So... we already know all the right answers, right? 
I'm going to give you a counterpoint to what you have previously asked and your response. I'll approach it the way we have discussions of this nature in my classes when we get to Use of Force and Chapter 9.
First: Your bud is walking home with the girlfriend ( you didn't tell us, is she hot?) late at night. Oddball runs around and gets in a trail position. The girl wisely picks up on it, guy slowly recognizes potential threat. I really like the part where he tells her if the other guy makes a move towards them, she should run in the house lock the door, call the cops. Sounds good. If the other guy doesn't attack, it will be a short call, probably slower response time and the police are aware of a prowler. Still sounds good. I'm glad your bud ran in the house behind her.
Now, what would you do? Walking the girl home ( I know if she's with you, she's hot!) , strange guy starts going back and forth and falls into a trail position, starts closing. You tell the girl to do the same thing as before. If he makes a run at you, you stall him, she runs in the house and calls the cops.
How do you handle it ( the potential threat)?
In one statement , you referred to the event as "the assault". What did the guy do? I must have missed something. Was he just acting suspicious and following you? Is that what you refer to as "the assault"?
Or does he actually confront you OR use force OR commit a crime?
In these discussions, the first thing I ask is .....What Crime is being committed?????
What's the crime? What's the crime?
Is following someone an "assault"? Not really in my book.
Assuming that he has not used any force against you, can you legally draw and point your handgun at him?
Let's see... "the threat of force is justified when force is justified"?
Are you justified in using force to , what , stop someone from following you? You can use the threat of deadly force by producing a weapon when force is justified , provided you limit it to create an apprehension. Basically bluff the guy. But , if he has not committed a crime or attacked you, I think pulling the handgun and especially announcing a threat with the handgun is a very risky move. I have had one student(52YO man) get intimidated and he pulled a shotgun on a very tall 16 year old kid in his yard and the CHL was convicted of deadly conduct. The kid was standing there waiting for a ride from a friend at 3am.
Here's a bad example: The stalker follows you, the hot girlfriend makes a break for the door and you turn and say,"STOP - I am feeling threatened by you, I am armed and willing to defend myself" .
He stops and then gets scared, spots a passing police car ( because CSPD cars are alwaysin the wrong place at the wrong time) and runs towards it and says "help, that guy over there has a gun and is going to shoot me!" What happens then? I have no good news for you in this scenario. What if he was just out looking for his little Chihuahua dog late at night and was trying to catch up to you and ask you if you had seen him? Maybe he just made it up, but it could sound plausible to the cops and you were the one holding the gun on him......
I would agree with the others that a can of Criminal Hygeine Spray (Deftec) would be a good supplement to your handgun. It's a good alternative.
Back in the good old days at the beginning of the CHL program , more instructors used to cover the Use of Force Continuum and Verbal Judo. Basically, if you have time and distance, verbally call out to the guy. Hey what going on? Non-confrontationally ask , do you need some help? If he doesn't respond verbally and closes the gap , move back and prepare for a force or deadly force encounter.
I'm saying this in a legal context, not necessarily in a physical, self-defense context. Things can change very, very fast. Of course, you know how to be prepared and are alert.
My basic point is, be very careful in drawing your gun out of concealment too quick.
One other anecdote from a former student. He( 58 YO white male) , the wife , kid and grandkids went to a high school football playoff game. Their team won. When they were exiting the parking lot, logjam ensued. A car full of the other teams supporters wanted to get in front of our CHL. He would not let them in. They cursed the CHL, spit at him, and finally got out and kicked his front quarterpanel. They other party then challenged the CHL to "get out be a man, show what a tough guy you are ."
The CHL lasted with about ten minutes of good Verbal Judo, not taking the bait then finally when the other driver got right up to his window and said he wanted him to get out, our CHL said, "Nope, this is a fight you can't win. " I know you can kick my ass but I not going to let it get that far. You'll have a bullet hole in you before that happens." The other driver asked if he had a gun. The CHL nodded affirmative. And then the problems began. Several bystanders and fans of the losing team, all called the police. The police arrived and ended up arrestting the CHL for failure to conceal. They said that his acknowledgement that he had a gun constituted an intentional failure to conceal violation. He was arrested.
$11,000 later the charges were dropped and he is asking for an expungement. He still does not have his handgun back. The ADA (the CHL says she is a little bitch with a bad anti-gun attitude) told him that if he continues trying to get his gun back, she will file Disorderly Conduct charges on him.
Sorry for being long-winded but the pattern that I detect has been that what CHLs say when carrying their CHLs, get them in the most trouble in real life. Of course, if he is a threat and I didn't have to worry about someone overhearing me, I would give him a few profane words without exposing the fact that I was carrying a handgun.
Also, I have started discussing more with students about avoiding getting fantasy gun fight scenarios locked into your mind. Because.... it nevers plays out the way you expect. That's why being mentally, emtionally and spiritually prepared is so important.
Gig'em
J '83 -ECON
Let me try to swerve back on topic.
Hey GigAg!
I really hate net forums like this as a way to discuss these issues because it's a relatively slow medium to converse in.
And since all are CHL's and have a signed,sworn Knowledge Of Laws affadavit on file with DPS
, we all are fully and completely aware of Ch.46 and Ch. 9 of the Texas Penal Code. Hey we all know the answers. Or at least we have signed that we do. So... we already know all the right answers, right? I'm going to give you a counterpoint to what you have previously asked and your response. I'll approach it the way we have discussions of this nature in my classes when we get to Use of Force and Chapter 9.
First: Your bud is walking home with the girlfriend ( you didn't tell us, is she hot?)
late at night. Oddball runs around and gets in a trail position. The girl wisely picks up on it, guy slowly recognizes potential threat. I really like the part where he tells her if the other guy makes a move towards them, she should run in the house lock the door, call the cops. Sounds good. If the other guy doesn't attack, it will be a short call, probably slower response time and the police are aware of a prowler. Still sounds good. I'm glad your bud ran in the house behind her.Now, what would you do? Walking the girl home ( I know if she's with you, she's hot!)
, strange guy starts going back and forth and falls into a trail position, starts closing. You tell the girl to do the same thing as before. If he makes a run at you, you stall him, she runs in the house and calls the cops. How do you handle it ( the potential threat)?
In one statement , you referred to the event as "the assault". What did the guy do? I must have missed something. Was he just acting suspicious and following you? Is that what you refer to as "the assault"?
Or does he actually confront you OR use force OR commit a crime?
In these discussions, the first thing I ask is .....What Crime is being committed?????
What's the crime? What's the crime?
Is following someone an "assault"? Not really in my book.
Assuming that he has not used any force against you, can you legally draw and point your handgun at him?
Let's see... "the threat of force is justified when force is justified"?
Are you justified in using force to , what , stop someone from following you? You can use the threat of deadly force by producing a weapon when force is justified , provided you limit it to create an apprehension. Basically bluff the guy. But , if he has not committed a crime or attacked you, I think pulling the handgun and especially announcing a threat with the handgun is a very risky move. I have had one student(52YO man) get intimidated and he pulled a shotgun on a very tall 16 year old kid in his yard and the CHL was convicted of deadly conduct. The kid was standing there waiting for a ride from a friend at 3am.
Here's a bad example: The stalker follows you, the hot girlfriend makes a break for the door and you turn and say,"STOP - I am feeling threatened by you, I am armed and willing to defend myself" .
He stops and then gets scared, spots a passing police car ( because CSPD cars are alwaysin the wrong place at the wrong time) and runs towards it and says "help, that guy over there has a gun and is going to shoot me!" What happens then? I have no good news for you in this scenario. What if he was just out looking for his little Chihuahua dog late at night and was trying to catch up to you and ask you if you had seen him? Maybe he just made it up, but it could sound plausible to the cops and you were the one holding the gun on him......
I would agree with the others that a can of Criminal Hygeine Spray (Deftec) would be a good supplement to your handgun. It's a good alternative.
Back in the good old days at the beginning of the CHL program , more instructors used to cover the Use of Force Continuum and Verbal Judo. Basically, if you have time and distance, verbally call out to the guy. Hey what going on? Non-confrontationally ask , do you need some help? If he doesn't respond verbally and closes the gap , move back and prepare for a force or deadly force encounter.
I'm saying this in a legal context, not necessarily in a physical, self-defense context. Things can change very, very fast. Of course, you know how to be prepared and are alert.
My basic point is, be very careful in drawing your gun out of concealment too quick.
One other anecdote from a former student. He( 58 YO white male) , the wife , kid and grandkids went to a high school football playoff game. Their team won. When they were exiting the parking lot, logjam ensued. A car full of the other teams supporters wanted to get in front of our CHL. He would not let them in. They cursed the CHL, spit at him, and finally got out and kicked his front quarterpanel. They other party then challenged the CHL to "get out be a man, show what a tough guy you are ."
The CHL lasted with about ten minutes of good Verbal Judo, not taking the bait then finally when the other driver got right up to his window and said he wanted him to get out, our CHL said, "Nope, this is a fight you can't win. " I know you can kick my ass but I not going to let it get that far. You'll have a bullet hole in you before that happens." The other driver asked if he had a gun. The CHL nodded affirmative. And then the problems began. Several bystanders and fans of the losing team, all called the police. The police arrived and ended up arrestting the CHL for failure to conceal. They said that his acknowledgement that he had a gun constituted an intentional failure to conceal violation. He was arrested.
$11,000 later the charges were dropped and he is asking for an expungement. He still does not have his handgun back. The ADA (the CHL says she is a little bitch with a bad anti-gun attitude) told him that if he continues trying to get his gun back, she will file Disorderly Conduct charges on him.
Sorry for being long-winded but the pattern that I detect has been that what CHLs say when carrying their CHLs, get them in the most trouble in real life. Of course, if he is a threat and I didn't have to worry about someone overhearing me, I would give him a few profane words without exposing the fact that I was carrying a handgun.
Also, I have started discussing more with students about avoiding getting fantasy gun fight scenarios locked into your mind. Because.... it nevers plays out the way you expect. That's why being mentally, emtionally and spiritually prepared is so important.
Gig'em
J '83 -ECON
