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chasfm11 wrote:I don't understand a lot of things about our criminal justice system but these situations are among the most bizarre. The compassionate side of me wants to believe that a 12 year old can be reformed. The logical side of me believes that a child of 12 who can kill and will be warehoused by the juvenile system for 10 years is unlikely to grow a sense of morality in the process.

There isn't a good answer.

If they haven't turned their lives around by ago 20, warehousing them like animals for the next 60 or so years would be expensive. Younger kids in "juvenile" institutions tend to be treated badly by the older inmates (even if the people running the place are trying to do a decent job), which makes the convicts more hardened and less humane.

The Supreme Court says the death penalty for minors is unconstitutional, and I have to wonder about someone willing to stick a needle in a 12-year-old girl who is tied to a gurney.

All these cases leave me with mixed feelings. Some seem to be due to irresponsible parenting and dysfunctional families. Others seem to be random evil.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

chasfm11 wrote:I don't understand a lot of things about our criminal justice system but these situations are among the most bizarre. The compassionate side of me wants to believe that a 12 year old can be reformed. The logical side of me believes that a child of 12 who can kill and will be warehoused by the juvenile system for 10 years is unlikely to grow a sense of morality in the process.

There isn't a good answer.

If they haven't turned their lives around by ago 20, warehousing them like animals for the next 60 or so years would be expensive.

Agreed. But I think there is another aspect to it. At 40, most humans have slowed down a lot. While I do understand the pent up rage that can be generated by incarceration for 30 years, I also believe that the energy level of a 20 year old is what gets them into trouble, assuming they are lacking a moral compass. There are older criminals, many of them recidivists, but it would appear that the age group of 20-30 has a disproportionate representation in the criminal ranks.

I guess you can put me down as one of those who has little faith in the criminal justice system producing reformation and wants sentences to be both punishment and respite for society. I completely understand that it isn't possible to keep locked up anyone who has committed crimes but if you were aggregate all of the costs of catching and re-trying repeat offenders, I'd be willing to bet that their continuous daily keep in prison is cheaper for society in the long run.

If the 12 year old were an adult, the sentence would have been much longer. I completely agree that a just society is not going to execute a child even for murder but keeping them from preying on society until some of their "youthful exuberance" has waned seems to a reasonable solution. If our parole system did not appear to be so badly broken, I'd be in favor of using that. I see little evidence paroling a 12 year old murderer at 21 is going to help any part of the situation, helping the criminal or protecting society.

I agree that youthful impulsiveness is a contributing factor in many criminal actions by teenagers and adults under 30. This entire thread is a collection of incidents that made no sense in mature, rational terms.

The problem with warehousing young kids for 30 years is that they literally are not going to be good for anything when they get out of prison at age 40. They will never have had normal human interactions. Probably they will not learn a marketable skill (I know some people in prison do, but not many). Employers won't hire them. They will fall straight into the underworld with a chip on their shoulder.

I also have to ask in all seriousness, would the girl kill anyone else now that her mother and stepfather are dead? After age 18 she can "date" whomever she wants and otherwise do what she wants until she runs afoul of the law again.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote: I also have to ask in all seriousness, would the girl kill anyone else now that her mother and stepfather are dead? After age 18 she can "date" whomever she wants and otherwise do what she wants until she runs afoul of the law again.

- Jim

I cannot answer whether she might kill again. But she has demonstrated that she is capable. I don't hold any hope that six years in an institution are going to change her for the better.

I personally separate murder from most other crimes. I believe that there is more likelihood of rehabilitation for property crimes and even assault. In my view, some of those lesser crimes receive too much attention and sentencing. It is crimes like rape (especially of children) and murder that should demand the most from the criminal justice system - and they seldom seem to. It is one thing if the killing happens as part of an emotional maelstrom. A premeditated murder at any age suggests a special type of mental state. This was not a fit of passion nor an accident but a cold, calculated action. Perhaps I'm being too harsh.

I can't speak about anyone's mental state except my own.

Maybe now that this girl has been separated from "Romeo" and is living in a place with a concrete floor and cinder block walls she realizes the enormity of her actions. I dunno.

I agree that murder and rape get less punishment than they deserve—especially with the recidivism rate of sex crimes. I've seen compilations of the actual sentences served by people who kill family members. It's shocking.

A person caught with a pound of dope is going to get a longer mandatory prison sentence than someone who kills his own wife, "girlfriend," or child.

- Jim

In Braselton, Georgia (northeast of Atlanta), Wednesday or Thursday (reports vary) a 15-year-old girl allegedly shot her mother to death in the back of the head. The girl reportedly stayed in the home and had a 17-year-old male visitor during that time.

The girl was arrested and charged with murder. The male was charged with having sex with a minor.

The mother was a military recruiter. The father and one of their sons are also active military.

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/lo ... 0408-am-sd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/08/da ... er-mother/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/section ... cle/48745/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

Lock your guns in a safe. Keep the code to adults, But hay, I would trust my daughter/son when they are 15-16 to be competent in firearms. Not killing their parents. One has to look also for mental issues with teens.

In Easton, Massachusetts (Boston area), Thursday a 17-year-old boy was charged with fatally shooting his 42-year-old mother and burying her body in the back yard.

There was no indication of a motive

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... d_searched" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There must be an ill wind blowing in that part of the country. Last week a man in Plymouth reportedly beat his wife to death with a hammer, killed the couple's dogs, and then fatally cut himself with a power saw as police looked on.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... p=obinsite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

This has been a rough week.

In Riverside, California, Wednesday a 10-year-old boy was arrested for fatally shooting his father. Police described the killing as an intentional act, but did not suggest a motive. They said the deceased man's involvement in a white separatist movement did not appear to be a factor.

The boy and the family have a less than warm-fuzzy history.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/stories/PE_ ... 6a78e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://crimevoice.com/politics-not-the- ... -say-5600/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Jim

In Orange County, Callifornia, Sunday (Mothers Day), a 41-year-old woman allegedly fatally shot her 72-year-old husband. She also allegedly shot and wounded her 16-year-old son before her 9-year-old son wrested the handgun away from her.

She was arrested on the scene and charged with murder and other felonies.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/-299745--.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... ident.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sad for the kids.

- Jim

SC teen charged with killing mom on Mother's Day
http://www.kcbd.com/story/14599635/sc-t ... ected=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It has been a slow couple of months on the matricide-patricide front, but a 17-year-old Florida youth whacked his parents with a hammer last weekend and then threw a huge house party.

Nobody looks good in a mug shot, but...


Hammer. When are we going to enact reasonable hammer control laws? And what about those assault baseball bats?

- Jim

Kythas wrote:

seamusTX wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:Do people with mental problems need a motive?

Not necessarily. But more often than not there is some kind of trigger. For younger people who kill parents, it often involves being told they can't do something or denied money.

- Jim

A guy I used to work with has a son with severe mental/emotional issues. He goes to sleep every night wondering if he'll wake up in the morning.

On several occasions, he told me he's woken up in the middle of the night to find his son standing next to his bed with a knife in his hand, just staring at him.

His wife refuses to put their son in an institution.

I pray for him nightly.

I think the police might do it for her if he tells them that story.

Dave2 wrote:

Kythas wrote:

seamusTX wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:Do people with mental problems need a motive?

Not necessarily. But more often than not there is some kind of trigger. For younger people who kill parents, it often involves being told they can't do something or denied money.

- Jim

A guy I used to work with has a son with severe mental/emotional issues. He goes to sleep every night wondering if he'll wake up in the morning.

On several occasions, he told me he's woken up in the middle of the night to find his son standing next to his bed with a knife in his hand, just staring at him.

His wife refuses to put their son in an institution.

I pray for him nightly.

I think the police might do it for her if he tells them that story.

Time to tell wife it is happening. Kid needs professional help and hope it works.

seamusTX wrote:It has been a slow couple of months on the matricide-patricide front, but a 17-year-old Florida youth whacked his parents with a hammer last weekend and then threw a huge house party.

Nobody looks good in a mug shot, but...


Hammer. When are we going to enact reasonable hammer control laws? And what about those assault baseball bats?

- Jim

Ultimate Technique, quick!