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Chris wrote:i would never support open carry. by policy, i can carry openly, but you would never catch me doing so. on duty, i have to carry openly. i've had people jump me, and try and take my gun, and it's in a retention holster. people who think blatantly displaying a firearm is protection in and of itself, are only fooling themselves.

Just curious... in those cases where you were jumped and the BGs tried to take your gun, were you just bee-bopping down the street when someone said, "Hey! There's a guy with a gun! Let's take it away from him!"

Or, were the cases you cite ones in which you, in your capacity as a LEO, were already in official contact with someone who was about to be taken into custody, but who not-so-politely declined your offer to wear the steel bracelets?

It is a significant difference. Weapon retention drills are very important for anyone who carries openly. But those who openly carry in uniform tend to elicit a different response from the critters of this world, versus those honest citizens who have no arrest authority.

Keep things in perspective: just because you're had to wrestle over your duty weapon while fighting a do-bad, doesn't mean that Joe Q. Gaspumper should have to throw on a cover garment at an empty gas station in the wee hours.

Joe Gaspumper. That is good too. I will have to use that one also.

KBCraig wrote:

Chris wrote:i would never support open carry. by policy, i can carry openly, but you would never catch me doing so. on duty, i have to carry openly. i've had people jump me, and try and take my gun, and it's in a retention holster. people who think blatantly displaying a firearm is protection in and of itself, are only fooling themselves.

Just curious... in those cases where you were jumped and the BGs tried to take your gun, were you just bee-bopping down the street when someone said, "Hey! There's a guy with a gun! Let's take it away from him!"

Or, were the cases you cite ones in which you, in your capacity as a LEO, were already in official contact with someone who was about to be taken into custody, but who not-so-politely declined your offer to wear the steel bracelets?

It is a significant difference. Weapon retention drills are very important for anyone who carries openly. But those who openly carry in uniform tend to elicit a different response from the critters of this world, versus those honest citizens who have no arrest authority.

Keep things in perspective: just because you're had to wrestle over your duty weapon while fighting a do-bad, doesn't mean that Joe Q. Gaspumper should have to throw on a cover garment at an empty gas station in the wee hours.

Very Well stated. I agree completely.

My parents live in IN, open carry is legal, license is cheap and easy to get. I have never seen anyone carrying! I like the idea of open carry just to get rid of the printing laws.

I like the OPTION to carry open, but I would never do it myself. I think the element of surprise goes a long way.

I'd rather a potential attacker to not know that I have the gun.

IMHO Cosmo 9 hit the nail on the head. I probably would not open carry but it sure would be nice to not have to worry about printing or accidential exposure.

KBCraig wrote:
Just curious... in those cases where you were jumped and the BGs tried to take your gun, were you just bee-bopping down the street when someone said, "Hey! There's a guy with a gun! Let's take it away from him!"

Or, were the cases you cite ones in which you, in your capacity as a LEO, were already in official contact with someone who was about to be taken into custody, but who not-so-politely declined your offer to wear the steel bracelets?

It is a significant difference. Weapon retention drills are very important for anyone who carries openly. But those who openly carry in uniform tend to elicit a different response from the critters of this world, versus those honest citizens who have no arrest authority.

Keep things in perspective: just because you're had to wrestle over your duty weapon while fighting a do-bad, doesn't mean that Joe Q. Gaspumper should have to throw on a cover garment at an empty gas station in the wee hours.

well let's see...i have a radio to call for an entire army. i have on a bullet resistant vest. it's no secret that cops carry backup guns and knives. yet despite all that, there are people who will still attack to get YOUR weapon. you think these people only attack uniformed cops? the whole reason i'm generally there is because they attacked someone else.

your theory sounds great and all, but you're underestimating these bad guys. so you're mr. gaspumper and you're standing there doing your thing. mr bad guy sees your gun, but you still haven't noticed him yet. guess what? you just gave mr bad guy a crime of opportunity. not only can he now get your wallet, but he KNOWS he can get a gun out of it at least. that's 100 bucks easy. if mr bad guy is carrying, he's got the drop on you. you have no element of surprise. he rushes you, puts the gun to your head, takes your gun, your wallet, and you get to sit around and cry waiting for the police. and that's if you don't get shot.

same scenario, but your gun is concealed. mr. bad guy rushes you, puts the gun to your head and demands your wallet. now you get the wallet, pitch it in mr bad guys face, draw your concealed weapon and send a few rounds at him. his plan just got crapped on and he's lost, maybe even shot. criminals generally have plans. even opportunity crimes have plans. i know this because i have caught a ton of people looking for the opportunity, and/or planning for a new opportunity. if they know you have a gun, they'll plan accordingly.

i know working in a jail you get a little more personal than a street cop would, but you take that for granted. that same guy you stand and visit with in a jail setting will kick the stuffin out of you the first chance he gets on the street. (Fixed it for you.) 10 yr ODR.

i don't know where you get the idea that a gun prominently displayed on your hip gives you this big bubble of protection. that is a terrible misconception. cops who get shot usually get shot by people who have a concealed gun, and it comes when they don't expect it. the criminal gets to choose the time it is revealed. even criminals aren't stupid enough to run around flaunting a gun on their hip.

jnkirk1974 wrote:I like the OPTION to carry open, but I would never do it myself. I think the element of surprise goes a long way.

I'd rather a potential attacker to not know that I have the gun.

The Idea is:

A POTENTIAL attacker sees your gun and goes elsewhere... following a path of least resistance.

When your weapon is concealed, that POTENTIAL attacker has no idea that you're carrying and might--just might get the drop on you.

Your element of surprise has just vanished.

Russ

KBCraig wrote:

Chris wrote:i would never support open carry. by policy, i can carry openly, but you would never catch me doing so. on duty, i have to carry openly. i've had people jump me, and try and take my gun, and it's in a retention holster. people who think blatantly displaying a firearm is protection in and of itself, are only fooling themselves.

Just curious... in those cases where you were jumped and the BGs tried to take your gun, were you just bee-bopping down the street when someone said, "Hey! There's a guy with a gun! Let's take it away from him!"

Or, were the cases you cite ones in which you, in your capacity as a LEO, were already in official contact with someone who was about to be taken into custody, but who not-so-politely declined your offer to wear the steel bracelets?

It is a significant difference. Weapon retention drills are very important for anyone who carries openly. But those who openly carry in uniform tend to elicit a different response from the critters of this world, versus those honest citizens who have no arrest authority.

Keep things in perspective: just because you're had to wrestle over your duty weapon while fighting a do-bad, doesn't mean that Joe Q. Gaspumper should have to throw on a cover garment at an empty gas station in the wee hours.

+1
+1
+1
very well said

Joe Gaspumper... gotta love that guy!

Russ

Chris wrote: i don't know where you get the idea that a gun prominently displayed on your hip gives you this big bubble of protection. that is a terrible misconception. cops who get shot usually get shot by people who have a concealed gun, and it comes when they don't expect it. the criminal gets to choose the time it is revealed. even criminals aren't stupid enough to run around flaunting a gun on their hip.

Cops get shot by criminals because criminals hate cops.


No, they know that they would be rousted for running around with a weapon showing... they don't want to take that chance, they probably drive the speed limit most of the time (my ex felon-son-in-law was that way, he'd never speed cause he didn't want to attract any extra attention to himself.)

In the times of the old west only gamblers and cheats and low-lifes ever carried concealed. Normal people and law men carried open where everyone knew--and respected them; everyone except the criminal element that is.

Russ

Chris wrote:the whole reason i'm generally there is because they attacked someone else.

My point entirely. They didn't spot you buying coffee, and decide to knock you in the head and take your gun.

so you're mr. gaspumper and you're standing there doing your thing. mr bad guy sees your gun, but you still haven't noticed him yet. guess what? you just gave mr bad guy a crime of opportunity.

How is John Q. more of a "crime of opportunity" than John Law is?

i don't know where you get the idea that a gun prominently displayed on your hip gives you this big bubble of protection.

No one has argued that. Especially not me.

Kevin

stash wrote:IMHO Cosmo 9 hit the nail on the head. I probably would not open carry but it sure would be nice to not have to worry about printing or accidential exposure.

There are no "printing laws" and you have to intentionally fail to conceal your handgun to be in violation. The accidental wind blowing of the cover garment is not a violation.



I oppose open carry. However, none of us know what, if any, impact open carry would have on criminals. There are a lot of posts in this thread about what criminals will and won't do, but the truth is we don't know. We can speculate, but we don't know.

There has been excellent argument on both sides of the issue in this thread and I have to admit, you open carry supporters make some valid points. I just have this innate opposition to it, and I can't put my finger on it.

Yes txi. Without anyone knowing it, the situation & the BG combined dictate whether open is a deterrent or invitation.
BG-"That guy is armed, I'll pick an easier mark.
"That guy has a gun. Let's see if he can use it. If not it is a free $$$$$$
All boils down to attitude. Theirs is bad or worse.
Ours is GOOD.

You could "if, and, but" this debate all day. I still believe the MAIN thing is my RIGHT to do so! If you have a right and do not exercise it, you will loose it.

RPBrown wrote:I don't want to hijack the thread either but in the scenerio given, what keeps BG from taking your wallet and weapon?

Hyper-awareness...Having the discipline, and it being second-nature to scope the territory out even before you get out of the vehicle...

Making sure you don't get skull-blocked watching your $$$ getting tallied up on the screen at the pump...

Being aware is not a sign that you are paranoid or even scared...

The one thing that comes to my mind is that when and if the Bad Guys do make an attempt to relieve you of personal belongings, in this day and age I do not see them backing off in time not to continue the attack, even if they see a holstered firearm...

Remember, the average BG is pretty much not very swooft enough to make an "on the fly" decision(s)...They pretty much press on with what they start...

But thats just my opinion...

And to me what is to keep them from taking my wallet or weapon?

"Hey, homey? Is that my briefcase?"