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Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:06 pm
by sjfcontrol
I took no offense.
The death row part was a purposeful exaggeration. However, I don't really think you want your wife found guilty of manslaughter, either. She would have the right to shoot (or more correctly, a defense to prosecution for shooting) while she was being threatened with deadly force (the gun pointed at her). Once the BG is leaving, that threat no longer exists, and she cannot use that defense anymore. Any good prosecutor could make that case. If she shoots then, the only defense is to prevent the loss of the stolen property. And that's not likely to fly. She would get nowhere at all trying to claim she did it to prevent a possible future home invasion/rape/robbery/murder, etc. The threat has to be "immediate" to justify deadly force.
You may not want to wait till they're in your house, but legally, I don't see any alternative. Change your locks. Spend the night at a hotel, or at friends, be a good enough witness to allow the cops to catch them, but shooting after the threat is gone is not going to result in a happy ending, either.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:28 pm
by C-dub
G26ster wrote:BTW, when is it legally night-time? In aviation, for example, there is a definition, but what is the legal definition in the Texas statutes?
This is just a guess, but for legal purposes it might be between the official time of sunset and sunrise. However, in this example, even though it was in blue text, I don't believe the night time part of the statute had any bearing.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:21 pm
by suthdj
C-dub wrote:G26ster wrote:BTW, when is it legally night-time? In aviation, for example, there is a definition, but what is the legal definition in the Texas statutes?
This is just a guess, but for legal purposes it might be between the official time of sunset and sunrise. However, in this example, even though it was in blue text, I don't believe the night time part of the statute had any bearing.
I would take night time to be when street lights come on.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:34 pm
by JJVP
sjfcontrol wrote:rm9792 wrote:That "minor property" has your address, maybe keys, kids pics and maybe school info, credit cards that can be ran up to tens of thousands of dollars, etc. Not IMO a minor crime.
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I shot the deceased to protect my keys, and pictures of my kids!" Yep, that'll go over well.
The credit cards are a maximum of $50 liability each, and usually that's waived (especially if notification is given in a reasonable time).
Look, I'm just saying you really want to weigh your options before "wasting" somebody over the contents of a purse.
People get wasted all the time after complying with a robber. "I was on fear for my life. He said he was going to shoot me" - Case dismissed.
You have a 50/50 chance that the guy won't shoot you just for the hell of it. Are you willing to take those odds?
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:42 pm
by sjfcontrol
JJVP wrote:sjfcontrol wrote:rm9792 wrote:That "minor property" has your address, maybe keys, kids pics and maybe school info, credit cards that can be ran up to tens of thousands of dollars, etc. Not IMO a minor crime.
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I shot the deceased to protect my keys, and pictures of my kids!" Yep, that'll go over well.
The credit cards are a maximum of $50 liability each, and usually that's waived (especially if notification is given in a reasonable time).
Look, I'm just saying you really want to weigh your options before "wasting" somebody over the contents of a purse.
People get wasted all the time after complying with a robber. "I was on fear for my life. He said he was going to shoot me" - Case dismissed.
Not so much when they're leaving. If he is still pointing the gu n, he's a threat. Otherwise no.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:51 pm
by JJVP
sjfcontrol wrote:JJVP wrote:sjfcontrol wrote:rm9792 wrote:That "minor property" has your address, maybe keys, kids pics and maybe school info, credit cards that can be ran up to tens of thousands of dollars, etc. Not IMO a minor crime.
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I shot the deceased to protect my keys, and pictures of my kids!" Yep, that'll go over well.
The credit cards are a maximum of $50 liability each, and usually that's waived (especially if notification is given in a reasonable time).
Look, I'm just saying you really want to weigh your options before "wasting" somebody over the contents of a purse.
People get wasted all the time after complying with a robber. "I was on fear for my life. He said he was going to shoot me" - Case dismissed.
Not so much when they're leaving. If he is still pointing the gu n, he's a threat. Otherwise no.
That's not what the law says:
PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.
(B)
to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after com-
mitting burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the night-
time
from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:18 pm
by sjfcontrol
JJVP wrote:sjfcontrol wrote:JJVP wrote:sjfcontrol wrote:rm9792 wrote:That "minor property" has your address, maybe keys, kids pics and maybe school info, credit cards that can be ran up to tens of thousands of dollars, etc. Not IMO a minor crime.
"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I shot the deceased to protect my keys, and pictures of my kids!" Yep, that'll go over well.
The credit cards are a maximum of $50 liability each, and usually that's waived (especially if notification is given in a reasonable time).
Look, I'm just saying you really want to weigh your options before "wasting" somebody over the contents of a purse.
People get wasted all the time after complying with a robber. "I was on fear for my life. He said he was going to shoot me" - Case dismissed.
Not so much when they're leaving. If he is still pointing the gu n, he's a threat. Otherwise no.
That's not what the law says:
PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.
(B)
to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after com-
mitting burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the night-
time
from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A)
the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Did you happen to notice the part I highlighted in blue? Again, shooting to protect property, especially minor property, may be justified under the law, but will be a tough sell to a jury.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:03 pm
by JJVP
sjfcontrol wrote:
Did you happen to notice the part I highlighted in blue? Again, shooting to protect property, especially minor property, may be justified under the law, but will be a tough sell to a jury.
Have you heard of Joe Horn?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_s ... ontroversy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If he wasn't charged, the woman in the video would have no problems whatsoever. A first year law student would her get free. Heck, someone who spent the night at a Holiday Inn Express would have no problem getting her acquitted.
Also see the word "or" after your blue highlighted part
(A)
the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means;
or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
If she tried to get her purse back, which she had every right to do, she risked being shot. She is more than justified and no jury would convict her. At least here in TX. If she was in NY, DC or Kalifornia it might be a different situation. I know if I was in the jury, I would vote to give her a commendation.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:19 pm
by sjfcontrol
Ok - I give up. Good luck in court, guys!
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:33 pm
by G26ster
suthdj wrote:C-dub wrote:G26ster wrote:BTW, when is it legally night-time? In aviation, for example, there is a definition, but what is the legal definition in the Texas statutes?
This is just a guess, but for legal purposes it might be between the official time of sunset and sunrise. However, in this example, even though it was in blue text, I don't believe the night time part of the statute had any bearing.
I would take night time to be when street lights come on.
I know that night-time was not part of the event, but it was part of the discussion of the statute. I would think it wise to at least have knowledge of what night-time is in
legal terms, as we are expected to adhere to the statute.
This the best legal definition I could find.
NIGHT. That space of time during which the sun is below the horizon of the earth, except, that short space which precedes its rising and follows its setting, during which, by its light, the countenance of a man may be discerned. I Hale, P. C. 550; 3 Inst. 63; 4 Bl. Com. 224; 1 Hawk. P. C. 101; 3 Chit. Cr. Law, 1093; 2 Leach, 710; Bac. Ab. Burglary, D; 2 East, P. C. 509; 2 Russ. Cr. 32; Rosc. Cr. Ev. 278; 7 Dane's Ab. 134.
A Law Dictionary, Adapted to the Constitution and Laws of the United States. By John Bouvier. Published 1856.
coun·te·nance (kount-nns)
n.
1. Appearance, especially the expression of the face: The question left him with a puzzled countenance.
2. The face or facial features.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:15 am
by flechero
As far as I'm concerned, if someone threatens me with a deadly weapon, their intent is to kill me.
Smart... to make any other assumption is akin to Russian roulette, with at least 3 in the cylinder.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:24 am
by J.R.@A&M
C-dub wrote:G26ster wrote:BTW, when is it legally night-time? In aviation, for example, there is a definition, but what is the legal definition in the Texas statutes?
This is just a guess, but for legal purposes it might be between the official time of sunset and sunrise. However, in this example, even though it was in blue text, I don't believe the night time part of the statute had any bearing.
Texas Parks and Wildlife defines it as 30 minutes after sunset. Likewise "shooting light" starts 30 minutes before sunrise.
Re: More Reason To Carry - Walmart Robbery
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:06 am
by Kythas
G26ster wrote:BTW, when is it legally night-time? In aviation, for example, there is a definition, but what is the legal definition in the Texas statutes?
The definition of "nighttime" in Texas statues is defined in Texas Transportation Code § 541.401:
§ 541.401. MISCELLANEOUS TERMS. In this subtitle:
(1) "Daytime" means the period beginning one-half hour
before sunrise and ending one-half hour after sunset.
(2) "Explosive" means a chemical compound or
mechanical mixture that:
(A) is commonly intended for use or used to
produce an explosion; and
(B) contains ingredients, which may include
oxidizing or combustive units, in packing, proportions, or
quantities that, if ignited by fire, friction, concussion,
percussion, or detonator, could suddenly generate highly heated
gases that could damage surrounding objects or destroy life or
limb.
(3) "Flammable liquid" means a liquid that has a flash
point of not more than 70 degrees Fahrenheit as determined by a
tagliabue or equivalent closed-cup test device.
(4) "Gross vehicle weight" means the weight of a
vehicle and the weight of its load.
(5) "Nighttime" means the period beginning one-half
hour after sunset and ending one-half hour before sunrise.
(6) "Park" or "parking" means to stand an occupied or
unoccupied vehicle, other than temporarily while loading or
unloading merchandise or passengers.
(7) "Personal injury" means an injury to any part of
the human body and that requires treatment.
(8) "Right-of-way" means the right of one vehicle or
pedestrian to proceed in a lawful manner in preference to another
vehicle or pedestrian that is approaching from a direction, at a
speed, and within a proximity that could cause a collision unless
one grants precedence to the other.
(9) "Stand" or "standing" means to halt an occupied or
unoccupied vehicle, other than temporarily while receiving or
discharging passengers.
(10) "Stop" or "stopping" means:
(A) when required, to completely cease movement;
and
(B) when prohibited, to halt, including
momentarily halting, an occupied or unoccupied vehicle, unless
necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or to comply with the
directions of a police officer or a traffic-control sign or signal.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.