Why Carry Two Guns?

[RPB]

I will say that I don't like the idea of throwing the secondary gun to someone that isn't trained on how to use it. That could very well be a death sentence for them as they will most definitely become a primary target of the bad guy. I would even venture to guess that they would likely freeze and not know what to do if an unfamiliar gun got tossed to them....

My thoughts exactly. I guess in some extreme scenario, I'd hope whoever I "threw" my BUG to had been to the range with me.

Well yeah, I wouldn't just toss it to "anyone" I'm teaching my niece, and there are usually others around who are LEOs/CHLs. If I had a wife and kids here, they'd be familiar enough with what to do prior to any "situation".

[Skiprr]

This has come up before, and my reasons for generally carrying a BUG haven’t changed. And mechanical failure of my primary isn’t at the top of the list.

One of my long-time soapboxes (so pardon the long post) is that, outside of one’s home or business, defending oneself from a deadly threat is going to be about fighting--about survival--not about precise marksmanship. The anecdotal stories of CHL’s using guns in self-defense need to be evaluated and separated in that light. If you are in a structure you control and the felon is coming to you, it’s a very different scenario than the CHL holder out in public in an urban environment: going to and from your car, loading groceries, walking the dog, stopping to get gas, going to the ATM, etc.

Too, keep in mind those stories are, by definition, tales of the successful deployment and use of a firearm. If the good guy is never able to use his or her gun and the felon wins, you’ll never hear about the details of the encounter.

The best statistics we have show that in outside-the-home shootings that result in the death of the good guy, the conflict distance is less than 15 feet in 90% of the cases:

• Contact to 3 feet: 34%
• 3 feet to 6 feet: 47%
• 6 feet to 15 feet: 9%

In shootings where the good guy survives, the shooting distance is less than 20 feet in 75% of the cases:

• Contact to 10 feet: 51%
• 10 feet to 20 feet: 24%

Violent felons live “in the hole,” in that zero-to-6-foot zone. That’s where they do business, whether they’re confronting a police officer or preying on an unprepared citizen. As CHL holders, we have more burden of law placed upon us with regard to displaying our firearms than do police officers. We have to be darned certain that when we draw, it is justified. And we have clothing covering our weapons that we have to get out of the way before we can even start the draw.

In practical, street situations, the CHL holder is always going to be at the wrong end of the action-reaction curve if something serious starts to go down. We can’t pull our guns preemptively. Also consider that while the rapist and the junky in desperate need of a fix may typically work solo, it isn’t uncommon to see armed robbers or carjackers work in pairs.

Force-on-force exercises with Simunition or AirSoft guns plus training knives rapidly drive home that violent confrontations in a 360-degree world, launched from within zero to six feet, are fast, chaotic, and messy. If you’re familiar with the Teuller drill from 21 feet, think of the real-world consequences of an armed robbery or kidnapping launched at six to 10 feet. If you’re forced to, there’s no good way to fight to retain your firearm without totally engaging at least one of your arms.

My theory is that I have an arm on each side of my body for a reason. My primary pistol is on my right hip, my BUG is in my left front pocket. If one of my hands is engaged, I still have a firearm on the same side of my body as my other arm. And if, heaven forbid, a felon wrests my gun from me, I don’t want to just stand there and politely ask him to give it back.

Force-on-force training also reinforces a point G.A. Heath made about injury. When both combatants deploy and use handguns, guess where the vast majority of first hits occur? Yep: in the hands and arms; they’re typically up in front of COM, so that makes sense even if you haven’t experienced it yourself. If you’re in a bad situation, primary gun in your dominant hand, and that arm/hand is shot or severely cut, the likelihood you will drop the gun is very high. Ya can’t call a timeout to towel off, bend down, pick up the pistol with your other hand, check its condition, and then start the game-clock again.

My BUG is a tiny Seecamp. Doesn’t even have sights. But for me its sole purpose is for use as a near-contact weapon. Even though it’s only a .32, a few quick rounds will definitely sting while I try to get the upper hand on the problem and get back to my .45. Clint Smith (the same guy who coined, “Two is one, one is none”) says that the purpose of a sidearm is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have left behind in the first place. That’s how I look at my BUG: it’s there to help me get back to my primary if things have gone really badly.

Similarly, I almost always carry a blade, a folder I position so that I can reach it with either hand. ’Course, it has the added advantage of being able to cut seat belts or act as a glass striker.

I carry spare mags for my primary, too. Because it’s my primary, and I’d rather use .230-grain .45 ACP rounds if I have the choice. It isn’t about total round count. If a situation goes badly south, I doubt I’d need all eight onboard rounds to extricate myself. But with autoloaders, the part most likely to cause a malfunction is the magazine.

Bottom line is that, IMHO, most of the reasons to carry in the first place also support the notion of carrying a BUG. Have I ever needed a fire extinguisher in my home? Nope. But I don’t have just one; I have one upstairs and two downstairs. And by extension, car seatbelts evolved from lap-only, to lap-plus-shoulder. Why? Because two was a better idea than one. I’m glad we have brakes on both the front and rear wheels, too. And I backup the data on my PC.

My BUG is one of the smallest (though not the lightest) at 4.25” x 3”. Dropping it in my pocket takes no time, and I don’t miss having that pocket to store other stuff in. So why not do it? Why not have more than one fire extinguisher?

It isn’t at all about being tacticool or an urban Rambo wannabe. Just the opposite. I’m gettin’ old and slow, can’t run or fight like I used to, and if it ever comes to it, I’d rather have that second fire extinguisher and never need it, than need it and not have it.

[2up1down]

Two is one, one is none.

That makes three even better.

[RPB]

Skiprr, you brought up a lot I had never thought of before.

That all makes so much more sense than "I want to compare the hole sizes of two different calibers"

... thanks

[gordonramsay]

When I get my card in the mail I will be only carrying one, but with 3 mag's. God forbid you have to remove your weapon at any time in defense but as I see it the likely hood of you getting disarmed before firing and having to switch to a backup is as likely as you finding yourself in a situation where you would have to draw you gun.




but hey... if someone would donate to me one of those neat little J-frame compact revolvers in a 38 special... I'd do it

[Excaliber]

Very well said, Skiprr.

[texanron]

When I get my card in the mail I will be only carrying one, but with 3 mag's. God forbid you have to remove your weapon at any time in defense but as I see it the likely hood of you getting disarmed before firing and having to switch to a backup is as likely as you finding yourself in a situation where you would have to draw you gun.




but hey... if someone would donate to me one of those neat little J-frame compact revolvers in a 38 special... I'd do it

Hey Gordon, Has your kitchen show been cancelled yet?!?!

[sugar land dave]

Because it can be impractical to carry 3 or more guns?

I try to carry 3 whenever I can, but I sometimes only carry 2. Heck, on very rare occasions, I have been known to only carry one, but that's not what you asked about. The main reason I sometimes only carry 2 guns is if I am wearing tight leg pants or shorts, where an ankle holster is not a good option, and I'm also not wearing a jacket. The gun I carry on my waist somewhat blocks access to my right pocket, so I really only have the left pocket available for my 2nd gun, and I don't have a good place to keep my 3rd gun.

The most I have ever carried at one time was 6. That was when I was meeting a friend for lunch after going to the range and I didn't want to leave any guns in the car. I thought I would look weird carrying a range bag into the restaurant, and I was dressed in a very carry-accomodating manner with loose jeans, and a jacket.

Wow! Carrying 3 guns certainly ups the ante!

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that you need to carry that many? Are you an "average" citizen that just feels more comfortable with that many guns on your person? Does your profession put you at a higher level of danger than most?

At the end of the day, these are only handguns and you can quickly become "outgunned" by rifles or shotguns no matter how many pistols or magazines you may be packing.....

Good point on being outgunned. I can only use one gun at a time, so I will be outgunned by 2 assailants regardless of how many guns I have on me.

I usually don't carry extra magazines / ammo on me, as I have found it easier to draw another gun than it is to reload. Also, it is easier (for me) to draw another gun than it is to clear a jam or malfunction. A jam is unlikely since my most common primary carry is a Glock, but I have seen one of Glocks jam once, and it is a possibility.

Also, as others have said, it is nice to have guns in different locations as it increases your likelihood of getting to one of them without telegraphing your intentions to the BG.

My 2nd and 3rd guns are easy to conceal (pocket guns or a J-frame), so I guess the question is why not? I don't really see a down side with having extra firepower available assuming that it is not overly difficult to conceal or uncomfortable to carry. You could just as easily ask why anyone bothers carrying more than 5 rounds since most CHL incidents are settled with less than 5 rounds fired (I'm speculating). The answer would probably be that you might as well carry at least a full mag because it is only slightly more burdensome than carrying a partially loaded mag.

Just playing devil's advocate for a moment, what's to keep a BG from coming on these board and reading CHL defensive strategies or even posting questions to achieve same? Does everyone assume they would not read this forum?

Old age and treachery will only serve me well if we don't give away all of our tricks.

[RPB]

I assume they read .... but I recall advice given to me by the guy who went through an armed robbery with me (was robbed in the store I was in too)

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"

(I learned this when teaching some martial arts stuff too ... I don't want the student becoming MY master lol ) (well ... Never AGAIN anyway)

I don't disclose on here the location of everything I carry or can do

Also, sometimes having only 1 hand and being "handicapped looking" is an advantage.

I've survived 2 armed robberies, 2 guns and 5 guns in the bad guys' hands, an attack by a drunk Tae Kwon Do "expert" trying to kill me, and my time isn't up yet, my "appointment" is for later and I'm pretty confident even with all my "disabilities, age, aches, arthritis, pains, limits in range of motion, etc," so I'm not that worried..I have too much to do before I croak ... sadly, cleaning is one of them ... I better do that before the weekend, I may have company in town.

Think I'll make it my new signature line .... darn good advice. It's part of "why carry 2 guns" (at least)
"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"

[sugar land dave]

I assume they read .... but I recall advice given to me by the guy who went through an armed robbery with me (was robbed in the store I was in too)

"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"

(I learned this when teaching some martial arts stuff too ... I don't want the student becoming MY master lol ) (well ... Never AGAIN anyway)

I don't disclose on here the location of everything I carry or can do

Also, sometimes having only 1 hand and being "handicapped looking" is an advantage.

I've survived 2 armed robberies, 2 guns and 5 guns in the bad guys' hands, an attack by a drunk Tae Kwon Do "expert" trying to kill me, and my time isn't up yet, my "appointment" is for later and I'm pretty confident even with all my "disabilities, age, aches, arthritis, pains, limits in range of motion, etc," so I'm not that worried..I have too much to do before I croak ... sadly, cleaning is one of them ... I better do that before the weekend, I may have company in town.

Think I'll make it my new signature line .... darn good advice. It's part of "why carry 2 guns" (at least)
"Never show your hole card" "Always have something in reserve"

I never mistake you for a BG.....

[Weg]

I find it hard enough to carry one gun, never tried to carry 2 unless your count tossing my NAA .22 mag in my pocket sometimes while carrying another gun in my waistband.. wait, I guess that counts..

[RPB]

Like Skiprr, I'll vouch for a LW Seecamp in a pocket ... it weighs a little, but it isn't inconvenient at all.
Gotta use the right ammo though, it was designed to Winchester Silvertips, but some others work, but only the "good" ammos do, check the list of ammo which works, then test.

Seecamps aren't like Kahr etc ... He actually sends a finished gun, rather than you having to "break it in" (wear off machine marks/burrs etc)

[johnson0317]

Skiprr....excellent. It is almost every point I would have wanted to make, and a lot I would not have been able to come up with. Another good reason is when you are in the car. It is nice to have one that you have access to.

RJ

[Greybeard]

Some excellent comments above, especially "one is none".

12-ounce .357 BUG is on left ankle anytime the boots are on. I am so acclimated to the setup, I can almost forget it is there. When the boots come off, whether in the den or bedroom, the BUG goes in the left one. That way, I always know where it is.