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Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:36 am
by Charles L. Cotton
bnc wrote:So how do we go about ensuring that it is fairly applied?
Now that's a familiar liberal chant. Neverthless, here's how -- we put a missile into every home and vehicle outside of the U.S. that we identify as containing murdering thugs who will indiscriminately kill Americans. See, fair and balanced.
bnc wrote:The government has already stated that right wing, Christian, gun owning, Constitution supporting males, especially veterans, are possible domestic terrorists.
No, the government has not; only some very few within the government made that asinine statement and no action has or will be taken based upon it.
bnc wrote:Terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber at least received due process. Even the Nazis were put on trial. The Norway shooter is facing legal proceedings.
Have we lost so much faith in our legal system that we can not trust it to deliver justice to the worst of the worst?
No, we haven't lost faith, but you can't try those whom you cannot take into custody. Under your theory, anyone who operates from a country or region that will not or cannot extradite murders to the U.S. does so with impunity. The body-count under your philosophy will be staggaring.
Chas.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:43 pm
by E.Marquez
Charles L. Cotton wrote:bnc wrote:So how do we go about ensuring that it is fairly applied?
Now that's a familiar liberal chant. Neverthless, here's how -- we put a missile into every home and vehicle outside of the U.S. that we identify as containing murdering thugs who will indiscriminately kill Americans. See, fair and balanced.
bnc wrote:The government has already stated that right wing, Christian, gun owning, Constitution supporting males, especially veterans, are possible domestic terrorists.
No, the government has not; only some very few within the government made that asinine statement and no action has or will be taken based upon it.
bnc wrote:Terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber at least received due process. Even the Nazis were put on trial. The Norway shooter is facing legal proceedings.
Have we lost so much faith in our legal system that we can not trust it to deliver justice to the worst of the worst?
No, we haven't lost faith, but you can't try those whom you cannot take into custody. Under your theory, anyone who operates from a country or region that will not or cannot extradite murders to the U.S. does so with impunity. The body-count under your philosophy will be staggaring.
Chas.
Sir,
Sincerely
Old & Tired Infantry Sergeant Major, Proud Us citizen, Afghanistan calling home , cant wait to get back to Texas Dude.
Very well stated.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:08 pm
by Purplehood
Try not to annoy the local SMAJ.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:30 pm
by MadMonkey
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Under Texas law, he killed everyone of the soldiers murdered at Fort Hood.
Can you explain that? I don't see how he could be held responsible... are there any examples from here in TX?
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:36 pm
by Keith B
MadMonkey wrote:Charles L. Cotton wrote:Under Texas law, he killed everyone of the soldiers murdered at Fort Hood.
Can you explain that? I don't see how he could be held responsible... are there any examples from here in TX?
I can
CHAPTER 15. PREPARATORY OFFENSES
§ 15.02. CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY.
(a) A person commits criminal conspiracy if, with intent that a felony be committed:
(1) he agrees with one or more persons that they or one or more of them engage in conduct that would constitute the offense; and
(2) he or one or more of them performs an overt act in pursuance of the agreement.
(b) An agreement constituting a conspiracy may be inferred from acts of the parties.
(c) It is no defense to prosecution for criminal conspiracy that:
(1) one or more of the coconspirators is not criminally responsible for the object offense;
(2) one or more of the coconspirators has been acquitted, so long as two or more coconspirators have not been acquitted;
(3) one or more of the coconspirators has not been prosecuted or convicted, has been convicted of a different offense, or is immune from prosecution;
(4) the actor belongs to a class of persons that by definition of the object offense is legally incapable of committing the object offense in an individual capacity; or
(5) the object offense was actually committed.
(d) An offense under this section is one category lower than the most serious felony that is the object of the conspiracy, and if the most serious felony that is the object of the conspiracy is a state jail felony, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor.
Edit to add: Since the crime commited was several counts of Capital Murder (the intentional murder of someone for retaliatory purposes, which carries a Capital Felony penalty), the Conspiracy charge would be covered as a 1st Degree Felony.
Penalty for a 1st Degree Felony in Texas is minimum of 5 years to maximum of 99 years in the state prison, and a fine up to $10,000.
If the crime was Murder, rather than Capital Murder, Conspiracy would then be a 2nd Degree Felony carrying a 2 - 20 year prison sentence and up to $10,000 fine.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:38 pm
by Ameer
Charles L. Cotton wrote:bnc wrote:So how do we go about ensuring that it is fairly applied?
Now that's a familiar liberal chant. Neverthless, here's how -- we put a missile into every home and vehicle outside of the U.S. that we identify as containing murdering thugs who will indiscriminately kill Americans. See, fair and balanced.
Fairness says Mexico is long overdue for a couple dozen.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:42 pm
by MadMonkey
Keith B wrote:MadMonkey wrote:Charles L. Cotton wrote:Under Texas law, he killed everyone of the soldiers murdered at Fort Hood.
Can you explain that? I don't see how he could be held responsible... are there any examples from here in TX?
I can
CHAPTER 15. PREPARATORY OFFENSES
§ 15.02. CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY.
(a) A person commits criminal conspiracy if, with intent that a felony be committed:
(1) he agrees with one or more persons that they or one or more of them engage in conduct that would constitute the offense; and
(2) he or one or more of them performs an overt act in pursuance of the agreement.
(b) An agreement constituting a conspiracy may be inferred from acts of the parties.
(c) It is no defense to prosecution for criminal conspiracy that:
(1) one or more of the coconspirators is not criminally responsible for the object offense;
(2) one or more of the coconspirators has been acquitted, so long as two or more coconspirators have not been acquitted;
(3) one or more of the coconspirators has not been prosecuted or convicted, has been convicted of a different offense, or is immune from prosecution;
(4) the actor belongs to a class of persons that by definition of the object offense is legally incapable of committing the object offense in an individual capacity; or
(5) the object offense was actually committed.
(d) An offense under this section is one category lower than the most serious felony that is the object of the conspiracy, and if the most serious felony that is the object of the conspiracy is a state jail felony, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor.
Edit to add: Since the crime commited was several counts of Capital Murder (the intentional murder of someone for retaliatory purposes, which carries a Capital Felony penalty), the Conspiracy charge would be covered as a 1st Degree Felony.
Penalty for a 1st Degree Felony in Texas is minimum of 5 years to maximum of 99 years in the state prison, and a fine up to $10,000.
If the crime was Murder, rather than Capital Murder, Conspiracy would then be a 2nd Degree Felony carrying a 2 - 20 year prison sentence and up to $10,000 fine.
So you can be sentenced to death for conspiracy? I wasn't aware of that, thanks.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:44 pm
by Keith B
Also, they could charge a person who was a
knowing accomplice even though they didn't actually commit the act if they convinced the other to carry out the killing:
Title 5, Offenses Against the Person
§ 19.01. TYPES OF CRIMINAL HOMICIDE. (a) A person
commits criminal homicide if he intentionally, knowingly,
recklessly, or with criminal negligence causes the death of an individual.
(b) Criminal homicide is murder, capital murder,
manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 1123, ch. 426, art. 2, § 1,
eff. Jan. 1, 1974; Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:50 pm
by speedsix
...so they could get the death penalty by charging him as an accomplice, where conspiracy would only get the First degree felony punishment...right?
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:52 pm
by Keith B
speedsix wrote:...so they could get the death penalty by charging him as an accomplice, where conspiracy would only get the First degree felony punishment...right?
Correct. One level lower than the actual act committed.
Edit to add: Unless they charged and convicted him of Criminal Homicide because he knowingly caused the death, then he could get the death penalty as it was Capital Murder.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:53 pm
by speedsix
...I like accomplice better...gives credit where credit's due!!!
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:40 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
MadMonkey wrote:Charles L. Cotton wrote:Under Texas law, he killed everyone of the soldiers murdered at Fort Hood.
Can you explain that? I don't see how he could be held responsible... are there any examples from here in TX?
Anyone who participates in the murder, or a felony in which someone is killed, can be tried for murder. This includes planning and recruiting. As for examples, it happens frequently, such as when someone hires another person to kill their spouse, business partner, etc, or when someone kills another person as a favor to a 3rd person.
Yes, people not pulling the trigger can get the death penalty. Often, the actual trigger man gets a plea deal for life in prison so he/she will testify against the person soliciting them to do the crime and they go to death row. It's a very common occurrence not only in Texas. The difference is Texas actually kills those who get the death penalty rather than letting them sit in prison for 30 years.
Chas.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:10 pm
by ¿Qué?
Charles L. Cotton wrote:MadMonkey wrote:Charles L. Cotton wrote:Under Texas law, he killed everyone of the soldiers murdered at Fort Hood.
Can you explain that? I don't see how he could be held responsible... are there any examples from here in TX?
Anyone who participates in the murder, or a felony in which someone is killed, can be tried for murder. This includes planning and recruiting.
It should also include Holder and co-conspirators intentionally providing guns to criminals.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:03 pm
by punkndisorderly
Feel free to say I live in la-la land, but I have to agree with Ron Paul and Michael Savage on this one. Think it violates the costitution and US laws. Assassination of a US citizen by government officials sworn to uphold and protect the constitution, no matter how much of a slimy dirtbag the guy was, isn't a good thing. In a way, those knuckle dragging Muslim throwbacks from the 10th Century have already won at least a partial victory. They've gotten us to change the nature of our very country in the name of "safety". Assasination of American citizens, forcable groping to fly on an airplane, warrantless searches and wiretaps, secret lists that one can wind up on with no explanation why and no way to get off, etc. I don't think any of us would have beleived we could slip so far in such a short period of time.
If even half of what the goverment says the guy was involved in is true (and I'm not sure I trust our Government that much), I'm glad the guy is dead. Hell, if even a tenth of it is true, he deserved a much worse death than he got. However, it appears our government has crossed one more line, and a bit of America died with him.
When we violate that which sets us apart from the rest of the world, even if it's a small bit at a time, we become less special and more like the countries we and or our ancestors came here to escape from.
Re: Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:12 am
by Purplehood
I consider it a combat-related death. Due-process is difficult, if not impossible to effect in such situations. I consider it an acceptable exception.