TexasCHLforum.com

First, the general mod warning about personal attacks - not allowed. You may disagree with the post, but you may not attack the poster.

Now, taking off the mod hat, a reminder that, although the FN 5.7 may be a great carry gun, you cannot use it for CHL qualification, as it does not meet the minimum .32 caliber requirement.

I personally own one, it is the second one I have had (let the first one go, HAD to have another one). I do not carry it. Even though it is light weight, it's just too darned long to conceal for me.

I also do not keep it in my happy little "let's go to the range and shoot" bag. Had to take it out, as you can burn through $50 worth of ammo in about 5 seconds and just want more. Yes, it really is that much fun to shoot.

Seabear wrote:

mrvmax wrote:Check out the Rock Island Armory 22TCP as a cheaper alternative in a 1911 platform (with an extra barrel in 9 mm.)

I think you meant TCM

http://dev.rockislandarmory.com/index.p ... ols/22-tcm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are correct, it is difficult posting from my phone.

speedsix wrote:...would the 5.7 round remain stable or would it tend to tumble and bounce around in the body, creating more punctures? I haven't read any detailed accounts of why it is so effective at stopping humans....but at those high speeds, hydrostatic shock injury could be a part of it...has anyone here seen autopsy results to see how they work inside the body?

I can't cite sources at the moment, but my recollection from other reading is that the 5.7 bullet behaves much like the 5.5/.223 bullet in that it yaws tremendously upon striking the target and then tumbles around in the same way such that any exit wounds might not be located along the same line of trajectory as if it were say a much heavier 168 grain .308.

For the record, I'm not debating whether or not the 5.7 is an effective SD caliber. I'm convinced that it IS. The point I was trying to make in my previous posts is that there is evidence to suggest that in actual application, it may not be much more effective than a .22WMR. The reason for making that point is to demonstrate that there exists a viable alternative for someone who either cannot afford a FN Five Seven, or who might be concerned about the easy availability of ammunition. And, as I pointed out, I would personally probably buy the PMR first over the FN, at this point in time, for exactly those reasons. None of that means that I wouldn't like to have an FN Five Seven in my safe some day, and previous posts of mine in past threads about this gun support that notion. Back then, the PMR-30 had not yet entered the marketplace. The fact that it now has done so changes the dynamics a bit for someone who is on the market for this class of pistol. I seek merely to point that out. Vive la difference.

mrvmax wrote:Check out the Rock Island Armory 22TCP as a cheaper alternative in a 1911 platform (with an extra barrel in 9 mm.)

Is the noise from that round called a "TCP Report?"

The Annoyed Man wrote:

mrvmax wrote:Check out the Rock Island Armory 22TCP as a cheaper alternative in a 1911 platform (with an extra barrel in 9 mm.)

Is the noise from that round called a "TCP Report?"

Yeeeeah...I think thats a TPS report and yours have been a little off lately, we're using the new form, so if you could just, ya know, get those done, that would be great. Its just a regular day today so if you could just come on in, that would be great. Also if you could just move your desk back a little, we need to make room for some boxes, yeeeeah. Also the company has a no firearms policy, so if you could just, ya know, leave that in the car, that would be great. Ok then so I've got a meeting with the Bobs...

need a drinking coffee smilie...

olafpfj wrote:need a drinking coffee smilie...

coffay?

74novaman wrote:

LowGrainHighPain wrote:
Correct, the Five-seveN pistol is no better choice than a 9mm, .40S&W, or 45ACP, but it does have some advantages. Namely; it will hold 21 rounds in a flush-fitting magazine or 31 with an extension that measure 1.5 inches, It is the lightest full-size pistol in the world, it will easily penetrate level IIIa armor, it has hardly any recoil offering faster follow up shots than any other legitimate self-defense caliber.

Uh, isn't the bolded part just with the "we only sell this stuff to the military" ammunition?

I know you can hand load your own to do what you want, but to claim that civilians should choose this weapon because it can penetrate body armor with factory, easy to obtain ammunition isn't quite correct, is it?

Elite Ammunition manufactures ammunition that will penetrate Level IIIa armor and still penetrate 10 inches deep into ballistic gelatin. It costs about the same as .45ACP defensive ammo and is sold to civilians as well as LE/MIL. Elite Ammunition outperforms SS190 (FN's restricted military AP ammo) by quite a large margin.

Crossfire wrote:First, the general mod warning about personal attacks - not allowed. You may disagree with the post, but you may not attack the poster.

Now, taking off the mod hat, a reminder that, although the FN 5.7 may be a great carry gun, you cannot use it for CHL qualification, as it does not meet the minimum .32 caliber requirement.

I personally own one, it is the second one I have had (let the first one go, HAD to have another one). I do not carry it. Even though it is light weight, it's just too darned long to conceal for me.

I also do not keep it in my happy little "let's go to the range and shoot" bag. Had to take it out, as you can burn through $50 worth of ammo in about 5 seconds and just want more. Yes, it really is that much fun to shoot.

I agree, you can really burn through ammo with this gun. Reloading is an option and you can reload 50 rounds for around 5.00-7.00. If reloading isn't for you, SS197 is usually available several times a year for around 17.00 per box of 50. You usually have to buy 10 boxes at a time, but that is always recommended to save on shipping.

From a very respected terminal ballistics expert.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Read it and decide on your own.

Gringop

The Annoyed Man wrote:

speedsix wrote:...would the 5.7 round remain stable or would it tend to tumble and bounce around in the body, creating more punctures? I haven't read any detailed accounts of why it is so effective at stopping humans....but at those high speeds, hydrostatic shock injury could be a part of it...has anyone here seen autopsy results to see how they work inside the body?

I can't cite sources at the moment, but my recollection from other reading is that the 5.7 bullet behaves much like the 5.5/.223 bullet in that it yaws tremendously upon striking the target and then tumbles around in the same way such that any exit wounds might not be located along the same line of trajectory as if it were say a much heavier 168 grain .308.

For the record, I'm not debating whether or not the 5.7 is an effective SD caliber. I'm convinced that it IS. The point I was trying to make in my previous posts is that there is evidence to suggest that in actual application, it may not be much more effective than a .22WMR. The reason for making that point is to demonstrate that there exists a viable alternative for someone who either cannot afford a FN Five Seven, or who might be concerned about the easy availability of ammunition. And, as I pointed out, I would personally probably buy the PMR first over the FN, at this point in time, for exactly those reasons. None of that means that I wouldn't like to have an FN Five Seven in my safe some day, and previous posts of mine in past threads about this gun support that notion. Back then, the PMR-30 had not yet entered the marketplace. The fact that it now has done so changes the dynamics a bit for someone who is on the market for this class of pistol. I seek merely to point that out. Vive la difference.

You have to watch the video I (and others) posted comparing the 5.7x28mm to the .22WMR (out of a pistol), there really is no comparison. The PMR has great capacity but I wouldn't recommend it for self defense based on the over-penetration characteristics alone. It really functions like an ice pick in ballistic gelatin, and because of that, it doesn't slow down for a long time. The .22WMR out of a rifle using a hollowpoint wouldn't be so bad as it expands well, but I doubt you are going to choose a .22WMR if you need to go to your rifle.

Shot placement is everything; with that said, you can certainly put a man down with a PMR-30 and a shot to the Central Nervous System. However, the 5.7x28mm bullet is nearly an inch long, and when that tumbles inside your soft stuff (with nearly 3x the kinetic energy of the PMR-30), things are going to get disturbed in a big way. A side benefit to the tumbling, is that energy will be drained from the projectile before it poses a hazard to others.

How did that lady cop at Ft hood stay standing after multiple hits with it? Where was she hit?

gringop wrote:From a very respected terminal ballistics expert.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Read it and decide on your own.

Gringop

Sigh... 5.7 threads always go downhill after somebody quotes the venerable Dr. Gary Roberts DDS (that's dentist). This particular individual is probably THE most outspoken detractor for the 5.7x28mm platform, while at the same time being the least qualified to discuss it. DocGKR, as he is known by his followers, has not tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years -- that's 15-20 years. His opinion of a round not offered to civilians (SS190) or a round that was discontinued 20 years ago (SS90), is without qualification. The works cited in his article are all ancient and discuss either SS190 (military ball ammo) or SS90 (a prototype round that was discontinued by FNH 20 years ago.

His statement in the article you linked, that the 5.7x28mm performs "at best" like a .22 LR or .22 WMR, is provably wrong and idiotic. Here is a 5.7x28mm load fired from a pistol that fully expanded (even fragmented some) and still penetrated 16+ inches in ballistic gelatin.



Even the .22WMR from a rifle (http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2548.htm) is not capable of doing that unless a non-expanding bullet is used.

Only a couple days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, Dr. Roberts was already touting the early media reports that Hasan was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with the Five-seveN. He said something to the effect that it was lucky Hasan had not chosen a more potent caliber weapon... Of course we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, while Hasan was stopped by another officer. Hasan was shot five times with 9mm by this second officer and is alive today awaiting trial.

Gary Robert's credibility on the 5.7x28mm platform has been shattered due to his obvious bias and lack of current knowledge on the issue and it would be best if we removed his comments entirely from the discussion. I could go on and on about his inane statements regarding the Five-seveN, but this thread would be much more informative and beneficial to those actually interested in the platform if we stayed away from that whole mess.

rm9792 wrote:How did that lady cop at Ft hood stay standing after multiple hits with it? Where was she hit?

She didn't; she was hit in the thigh, knee, and the hand (shrapnel from a 5.7x28mm bullet hitting the drain pipe she was hiding behind.

Here's a more comprehensive recap on the exchange between Hasan, Officer Munley, and finally Officer Todd:

OFFICER KIMBERLY MUNLEY:

When she first saw the gunman walking with his gun extended, I couldn’t get a clear shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire.” The gunman retreated behind a building, she testified, so I went to a corner and got in a prone position to wait for a clear shot.

Before long, the gunman came toward me, shooting, so I fired back, aiming for the gunman’s “center mass” in a bid “to stop the threat.” "I took cover behind a building whose rainspout was peppered by Hasan's gunshots, spraying me with shrapnel. Shards of metal from the gutter hit me in one hand.

I could see the gunman round the corner and closing on me. “I quickly got up, got into a shooting stance,” I fired back, aiming for "center mass," I got hit in the thigh first, and I believe that started to take me down. My Beretta 9 mm handgun had jammed just as the second bullet hit me in the knee and knocked me to the ground.

He moved away from me and encountered Officer Todd, who ordered Hasan several times to drop his gun."



Quote:
OFFICER MARK TODD

"I arrived at the processing center parking lot shortly after Officer Munley. As I ran up a small rise, following my partner, I could hear so much gunfire
echoing around the four buildings that it sounded like “thousands of rounds going off.”

"I too was directed to the gunman by soldiers."

When I spotted the gunman, I shouted repeated commands to surrender, but the gunman opened fire. The gunman retreated around a corner of the building,
and I then heard more volleys that sounded like they were coming from different weapons.

"I followed and soon saw the gunman standing by a telephone pole."

20 feet away from the downed and wounded Officer Munley, trying to crawl for her weapon, Officer Mark Todd confronts the gunman.

I challenged him — 'Halt! Military police! Drop your weapon

At that moment, I saw the gunman's red targeting laser fixed on me. The gunman got off several shots.

I returned fire five times from my Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol.

"I seen him wince a couple times. He collapsed and slid down against a telephone pole. "I ran up, rushed him. I kicked the weapon
away, flipped him over to handcuff him and placed him in hand irons."

I began emergency medical treatment. I started checking his vitals to try to save his life.

Emergency rescue crews then took over, and I left the gunman to help wounded soldiers. But fire, I recovered a semiautomatic pistol, a revolver
and several magazines loaded with rounds.

When I reached into Hasan’s pants pockets, I found he still had an arsenal, loaded magazines for his Herstal semiautomatic and an unused revolver along with a cellphone."

The revolver apparently was not fired during the rampage. Officer Todd, the one that hit Hasan in the CNS and crippled him, said he shot at Hasan under fire but there are conflicting accounts of what really happened. In the following article, an eye witness stated that Todd caught up with Hasan after "rounding a building" and shot him while Hasan was reloading his FiveseveN. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us...pagewanted=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It could very well be that Hasan was taken out by a shot to the back.




A little more on Officer Munley's injuries:

http://sgtmunley.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all.

I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed.


http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/2 ... /912029944" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sgt. Kim Munley, who helped stop the shooter Nov. 5 at Fort Hood, Texas, will have to get an artificial knee, which means she will not be able to return to street patrol duty.


http://www.kasa.com/dpps/military/army/ ... y-_3228588" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Munley underwent total knee replacement surgery in January and still walks with a cane. She said the most difficult part of her recovery has been learning to rely on others.

LowGrainHighPain wrote:
Gary Robert's credibility on the 5.7x28mm platform has been shattered due to his obvious bias and lack of current knowledge on the issue and it would be best if we removed his comments entirely from the discussion. I could go on and on about his inane statements regarding the Five-seveN, but this thread would be much more informative and beneficial to those actually interested in the platform if we stayed away from that whole mess.

Actually, I prefer to have all the data that I can when making decisions that may affect my life and those of my loved ones. If you have data that directly contradicts Gary Robert's recommendations, then let's hear it. Dr Roberts also cited several articles from Wound Ballistic Review and several LEO and Mil sources as to their experiences with 5.7.

If you can find a well known ballistics expert with a proven track record that recommends using the 5.7 as a self defense or LEO platform, then I'm all ears.

Gringop

After three pages of comments does anyone else carry one of these fine pistols and does anyone have any pics of IWB or OWB carry? I too love this gun and its potential, but the cost of ammo keeps my wants from turning to needs I guess.

I can also see reasons one would choose this pistol for its capacity, kinetic energy from the round, and the quality of the firearm. I think the PMR only has capacity on its side. The quality of most Kel-tec firearms leave a lot to be desired in my opinion. The rounds are similar in velocity and size, but I think the 5.7 is light years ahead of the .22mag as far as bullet performance once a target is struck and is a viable self defense round.