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Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:25 pm
by mamabearCali
Holy cow.....ten yards 8 bystanders shot. They need to all get a handshake and a beer for heroism, then sent to the range for a week for being such lousy shots.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:31 pm
by RPB
VIA bTwitter:
@mikebloomberg There's a 14 year old girl in Marble Falls Texas who could train NY officers how to shoot ... jus sayin'
http://www.dailytrib.com/latest/16783-m ... -on-target" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Marble Falls High School sharpshooter Katie Bridges staying on target
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/national/n ... ce-gunfire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; NEW YORK (AP) -- All nine people wounded during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were struck by bullets fired by the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:19 pm
by harrycallahan
The police are guilty here. They should be charged for all the civilians they hit.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:41 pm
by Excaliber
chasfm11 wrote:The lastest says
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/n ... ?hpt=hp_t1
that there were no direct police hits on the bystanders
Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."
Police officers fired a total of 16 rounds; one officer shot nine while another one shot seven, the New York Police Department said.
Hmmmm....
CNN now says that three bystanders were struck by direct fire, and 6 by fragments. (See paragraph 3)
Out of 16 rounds, the report says the bad guy was hit "at least" 3 times.
I'm sure glad I live in Texas where LEO's know how to manage their gunfire.
9 innocents wounded by police gunfire in 1 incident is likely a national record.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:32 pm
by n5wd
Here's video of the second shooting, the one by the cops. No one close around the suspect - bystanders should not have been in the line of fire with disciplined fire control, from what it looks like on the video.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ray ... -1.1144424
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:20 pm
by posse
The really sick, twisted realization is those cops can carry in Texas but we can't carry in New York. Whatever traitorous politicians passed those un-American laws should be buried next to Benedict Arnold.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:39 pm
by wheelgun1958
Police officers fired a total of 16 rounds
Witnesses said police shot Johnson at least three times.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/n ... index.html
if the best I could do is 20%, i'd have never passed my CHL test.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:53 pm
by baldeagle
A reader posted the NYPD Guide on Firearms Use on my blog.
Uniformed members of the service should use only the minimal amount of force necessary to protect human life. Where feasible, and consistent with personal safety, some warning, such as “POLICE – DON’T MOVE,” should be given. Deadly force is never justified in the defense of property. Above all, the safety of the public and uniformed members of the service must be the overriding concern whenever the use of firearms is considered.
GUIDELINES FOR THE USE OF FIREARMS
a. Police officers shall not use deadly physical force against another person unless they have probable cause to believe they must protect themselves or another person present from imminent death or serious physical injury.
b. Police officers shall not discharge their weapons when doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons.
c. Police officers shall not discharge their firearms in defense of property.
d. Police officers shall not discharge their firearms to subdue a fleeing felon who presents no threat of imminent death or serious physical injury to themselves or another person present.
e. Police officers shall not fire warning shots.
f. Police officers shall not discharge their firearms to summon assistance except in emergency situations when someone’s personal safety is endangered and unless no other reasonable means is available.
g. Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly physical force is being used against the police officer or another person present, by means other than a moving vehicle.
h. Police officers shall not discharge their firearms at a dog or other animal except to protect themselves or another person from physical injury and there is no other reasonable means to eliminate the threat.
i. Police officers shall not, under any circumstances, cock a firearm.
I'm at a loss for words.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:59 pm
by JeffInDFW
If this were Texas, and I were standing there when this occured......I am going to see a man gunning down an unarmed man. I am going to see a large number of innocent people around. I suppose the tipping point would be if I saw him make no effort to shoot any OTHER people. If that was the case, I would look for close cover and watch him while waiting for police. *IF* I saw him try to shoot MORE people, then that is when it gets bad. If I have a wide open clear shot, I would shoot him. BUT.....when you have glass behind him that may be hiding innocent people BEHIND that glass....You have hard surfaces behind him that may ricochet.....Good Lord.....Do I take the shot and try to stop this guy from killing more people but risk hurting or God forbid killing an innocent person, OR do I sit and wait for the cops while he kills 3 more people? 6 more people? 16 more people? How far away is he? Is he presenting sideways or full on front/back? So many variables. I do try to play these mindgames with myself so I have a better chance of making the best choice should I find myself in this situation.
I CAN say, there is not a chance in hell I would rack off 16 shots in a crowded spot like that. "You never know WHAT you will do!". No, in this case, I can say with absolute certainly that I would not yank off my pants. I would not start singing. AND, I would not rack off 16 rounds in a crowded spot against one guy 10 yards away. Knowing I had other officers with me, I'm not racking off 7 rounds. NYPD cops have a history of letting fly an incredible amount of ammo.
FInal comment. Like you guys, I've been ranting to everyone I know about how guns are illegal in NYC and Chicago. Look how that has worked out for those cities.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:30 pm
by sjfcontrol
baldeagle wrote:
GUIDELINES FOR THE USE OF FIREARMS
i. Police officers shall not, under any circumstances, cock a firearm.
I gather they're talking about revolvers, and this is saying they MUST shoot double-action? With their extra-heavy New York triggers? Anybody know what firearms are currently carried by New York's "finest"?
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:39 pm
by baldeagle
sjfcontrol wrote:baldeagle wrote:
GUIDELINES FOR THE USE OF FIREARMS
i. Police officers shall not, under any circumstances, cock a firearm.
I gather they're talking about revolvers, and this is saying they MUST shoot double-action? With their extra-heavy New York triggers? Anybody know what firearms are currently carried by New York's "finest"?
According to this
police officers forum:
ON DUTY
S&W 5946
Glock 19
Sigarms P226 DAO
OFF DUTY
Glock 26
S&W 3914
Sigarms P239
S&W 3953 TSW
S&W 640 .38
The Kahr K9 is no longer authorized although there are around 7,000 in the field
AFAIK, all those guns can be cocked. But you'd be an idiot to holster a cocked modern semi-automatic.
There's nothing wrong with a DAO or a heavy trigger pull
if you practice regularly. If you don't practice regularly, there's a lot wrong with it.
When I practice with both of my Sigs (P226 9mm and P239 .357 Sig), I always start every magazine as double action. After all, if I'm in a bad situation and have to pull my weapon, the first shot is going to be double action. I'd better be used to it and able to shoot accurately, or the first shot is not only a complete waste but a danger to bystanders.
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:18 pm
by sjfcontrol
baldeagle wrote:
According to this
police officers forum:
ON DUTY
S&W 5946
Glock 19
Sigarms P226 DAO
OFF DUTY
Glock 26
S&W 3914
Sigarms P239
S&W 3953 TSW
S&W 640 .38
The Kahr K9 is no longer authorized although there are around 7,000 in the field
AFAIK, all those guns can be cocked.
But you'd be an idiot to holster a cocked modern semi-automatic.
There's nothing wrong with a DAO or a heavy trigger pull
if you practice regularly. If you don't practice regularly, there's a lot wrong with it.
When I practice with both of my Sigs (P226 9mm and P239 .357 Sig), I always start every magazine as double action. After all, if I'm in a bad situation and have to pull my weapon, the first shot is going to be double action. I'd better be used to it and able to shoot accurately, or the first shot is not only a complete waste but a danger to bystanders.
Well, I know the Glocks can't be cocked -- no hammer. Unless by cocked, you mean carrying with one in the chamber. And people carry modern semi-autos with one in the pipe all the time. That's the way I carry my XD-9, also striker-fired like the Glocks. And I swear I've seen officers carrying their SA guns with hammer cocked -- presumably with the safety on. So either we are talking about different things, or I disagree with the above highlighted statement. Are you saying you carry such that you'd have to rack the slide before shooting?
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:21 pm
by howdy
This article says the BG was hit 10 times:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08 ... llets?lite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:28 pm
by RPB
Wonder if NEW YORK police don't use the evil "hollow points" designed to do more damage (or designed to avoid over-penetration, depending on your world view)
never mind - found it .. they do use hps
Excerpt from
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/ ... M220120826" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The shooting was a rare example of the drawbacks posed by so-called hollow-point bullets. The New York Police Department started using those 14 years ago to reduce the likelihood of hitting bystanders, even though in this case the use of such bullets may have resulted in the opposite effect.
The bullets have become standard issue for many law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, as a replacement for traditional bullets that can pass right through a suspect.
They are considered safer for bystanders because hollow-point bullets are designed to mushroom when they strike a person. They cause massive injuries, but rarely exit.
However, the hollow-point bullets are more prone to fragment or ricochet when they hit a hard object such as the concrete planters used at the popular tourist attraction as security barriers against terrorist attacks, studies show.
Six of the nine bystanders wounded on Friday were hit by shrapnel caused when the hollow bullets fragmented as they ricocheted off the planters, and three by bullets, police said.
more at link
Re: Shooting at Empire State Buildings
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:45 pm
by E.Marquez
baldeagle wrote:
AFAIK, all those guns can be cocked. But you'd be an idiot to holster a cocked modern semi-automatic..
WHAT??? I assume I'm not understanding what your message or position is, as what the words say to me is silly and ludacris, so I assume you mean something other then what they mean in plain English.