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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:30 pm
by Abraham
"Whatever shoplifting/theft problems they have are theirs, not mine. Once money changes hands at the register, their merchandise becomes my personal property and I have no obligation to account for any of it to anyone."
The above was not written by me, but I think it most eloquent.
From this point forward, I will refuse to cooperate with what I consider a degrading/humiliating experience - unless contractually agreed.
You, store employee, want to reconcile my receipt with my purchases, go to Hades. Politely, of course...
If, you decide to go "Paul Blart" on me, I have the resources to fight you legally and have the resolve to do so....
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:41 pm
by MechAg94
RoyGBiv wrote:cb1000rider wrote:Say I had something that wasn't on my receipt. If the screener catches it, is that theft? Or do they simply return you to the register?
Good point...
Personally, I don't think those screeners (at Walmart) could catch a sneeze in a hayfield. It's security theater.
COSTCO probably does a better job, but still... If my receipt says 25 items and my basket is full of bulky stuff.... what's the chances they're capable of spotting item 26 buried under the rotisserie chicken? (and if you've never had a COSTCO rotisserie chicken, you're missing out
)
I don't disagree. It is just deterrent. In general, guilty people act guilty and don't want attention.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:58 pm
by jimlongley
KD5NRH wrote:jimlongley wrote:I was roundly scolded for taking the picture, that's against some rule somewhere,
Yeah, one of the things that keeps me in my current job is that I am no longer willing to work for any company that makes effectively documenting the questionable (or unquestionably nefarious) activities of their people more of an offense than the activities themselves. Had one security job that tried to can me for getting about 50 photos of damage from a truck hitting the gate, fence and retaining wall (including all the identifiers and matching damage on the truck, with measurements showing that all the damage matched up perfectly) until the client told them that those photos upped their claim payout by more than it saved them to have security, so if that was going to be a problem, they wouldn't need our company anymore.
When the security company changed the rules to make mere possession of a personal camera on client property a violation of policy, the client wrote up fairly creative $1/year time-limited leases for all camera equipment owned by security officers, so when we were on duty, our personal cameras became client equipment until the guard left the property. (Also had the nice side benefit of clarifying that they were liable for any damage or theft that happened in reasonable use for their benefit. That was comforting since I kept a nice DSLR with a 300mm zoom lens in the car to save having to follow people to get license plates.)
IIRC, one of the guards actually made the client give him his dollar each year, too
ROFL!
For a long time I carried my personal camera in my pocket, but shortly after that incident I started to leave it at home. I wasn't told much more than it was against policy, and the LP person could not produce the policy. He did have them on multiple videos, I just had the great frontal shot of the van peeling out of the lane it was parked in with full face shots of the driver and passenger.
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RoyGBiv wrote:In theory, I don't have any problem with Walmart (or any other store) wanting to check my receipt. In theory.
Theft is a real problem. It drives up the cost of goods for all of us. If receipt checking catches thieves, it's a small inconvenience.
If...
If I just finished paying for my purchases and walk directly to the exit, how is it that the receipt checker is going to do any better at preventing theft than the cashier who just physically touched everything the receipt checker is looking at? If I stole something, and got it past the cashier, the receipt checker is going to find it?
That's security theater of the highest order. IMO.
I can see the value of this at places like COSTCO. There's so much mixing of folks and goods between the registers and the doors (food area) and the fact that nothing is bagged (easy to toss in a stolen item), it really doesn't bother me that COSTCO wants to count my items and check my receipt. It does bother me to have to wait on line again to exit the store.
As for store security.... again... the store has a need to prevent theft. If I was stopped by LP, and they wanted to search or detain me, I would ask them to call the police. I would absolutely not allow anyone to search me or sequester me in a back room. But, I'm happy to stand quietly in a public place while the police are called.
Now, get off my lawn!
I quit Sam's Club partly because of their receipt check policy and station. I bought a bunch of items and noted the gas price inside the store, so I went and got gas. When I got to the gas station the price had gone up 3 cents, so I went back in (through the entrance) to object to the price difference and then started to exit through the exit when the "screener" attempted to stop me for skipping the line and not showing a receipt. After a short confrontation with him I arrived outside to find the manager I had complained to outside changing the sign. I took a picture, it had not been changed yet, and then turned around to go back in to the customer service desk when the screener attempted to stop me for entering through the exit. I pointed out that I was trying to get back to the service desk to finish my complaint before they finished changing the sign. Eventually they decided to stop fighting me about the 48 cents and I cut up my membership card and left it sitting on the desk.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:23 pm
by RPBrown
I'm going to play devils advocate on some of this as far as the people at the door to check our purchases. I can tell you first hand it is not only to make sure that you did not steal something but also to make sure everything you purchased made it into the basket.
My wife and I went to Sams earlier this year and when we made it to the check out, I told her I would go get her car and pull to the door to load. When I pulled up to the loading area, I could see her standing there with the little gray haired lady as she was on the radio. My first thought was the checker didn't ring up everything and they thought my wife was trying to steal it. I walked into the store and as I approached my wife, a man came hustling up to the door with a couple of items that we had purchased that the checker slid down beside her when my wife was preoccupied with something else. Therefore the gray haired lady not only saved us a return trip, she also helped the store catch an employee that was apparently trying to steal stuff after it was paid for.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:45 pm
by winters
"wearing baggy clothes not quite appropriate to the weather" funny I have never been stopped wearing my baggy shorts into a store when its 40 degrees outside.
"I can tell you first hand it is not only to make sure that you did not steal something but also to make sure everything you purchased made it into the basket" That is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard. When frys stops you they are counting items in your bag vs receipt. I was double charged for one cheap item and charged full price for another. Which made it come out in my favor. I saw it later after getting into my car. I went back in to have them fix it and you wouldn't believe the hassle they gave me for trying to return and rebuy that stuff. I told them next time their inventory can be off and I will keep the money I made because of their screw up.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:55 pm
by Charlies.Contingency
winters wrote:"wearing baggy clothes not quite appropriate to the weather" funny I have never been stopped wearing my baggy shorts into a store when its 40 degrees outside.
"I can tell you first hand it is not only to make sure that you did not steal something but also to make sure everything you purchased made it into the basket" That is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard. When frys stops you they are counting items in your bag vs receipt. I was double charged for one cheap item and charged full price for another. Which made it come out in my favor. I saw it later after getting into my car. I went back in to have them fix it and you wouldn't believe the hassle they gave me for trying to return and rebuy that stuff. I told them next time their inventory can be off and I will keep the money I made because of their screw up.
I really confused wal-mart a while back, when I came into the store with a 12-pack of big red I wanted to buy. It really through them for a loop, but I didn't see it at the bottom of the basket, so after I loaded up, I went back in to pay for it. I noticed they had put a sign at the registers now, "Don't forget to check the bottom of your cart." Now it just makes me laugh, I thanked them for posting a reminder for me at all of the registers.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:33 pm
by hillfighter
Let's turn this around. If they touch me that's assault. How much force can I legally use to arrest them?
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:12 pm
by howdy
Would it be legal to record using your cell phone the discussion you are having with the Guard or Loss Prevention people. This might come in handy for any on-going investigation/accusation.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:34 pm
by EEllis
hillfighter wrote:Let's turn this around. If they touch me that's assault. How much force can I legally use to arrest them?
You can use the amount of force necessary. But of course if the cop that ends up responding doesn't agree with your actions your looking at serious charges. Assault on a security officer gets bumped up to felony status instead of a class A miss.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:07 pm
by ELB
howdy wrote:Would it be legal to record using your cell phone the discussion you are having with the Guard or Loss Prevention people. This might come in handy for any on-going investigation/accusation.
Last time I looked you can record any conversation you participating in, and without telling the other participants. That's not true in every state.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:36 pm
by EEllis
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:39 pm
by Charlies.Contingency
What's that? It's not working for me, but I'm out in the boondocks right now, so I'm out of luck for getting videos to work until Monday anyway.
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:43 pm
by EEllis
Charlies.Contingency wrote:
What's that? It's not working for me, but I'm out in the boondocks right now, so I'm out of luck for getting videos to work until Monday anyway.
Link to a youtube vid where I guy acts an idiot refusing to let a cop see his recept
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:44 pm
by Keith B
This is really not applicable as it was a police officer that was asking for the receipt, not a mall security officer. (plus the guy was being a jerk overall.)
Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:48 pm
by Charlies.Contingency
EEllis wrote:Charlies.Contingency wrote:
What's that? It's not working for me, but I'm out in the boondocks right now, so I'm out of luck for getting videos to work until Monday anyway.
Link to a youtube vid where I guy acts an idiot refusing to let a cop see his recept
A Peace Officer is a totally different set of circumstances in itself, as a police officer has the authority to detain you and then investigate, and a security officer does not even have the power to investigate anything! Just saying, a little bit off what we're talking about, but a similar situation none the less.
<Grammar Edit, after review, it didn't quite seem right, and appeared overly critical.>