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ralewis wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:46 pm
The pragmatist in me sees the tea leaves here, and we all need to do our part to be vocal with our elected officials. We also need to accept the reality that we may be faced with situation where our best option is negotiating for something we want. For example, I'd probably take mandatory background checks and some very tightly scoped and defined "Red Flag" law as long as we got National Reciprocity and a recognition that LTC holders who willingly submit themselves for background checks are recognized as not the problem and have restrictions on where we can carry be reduced.

Universal background checks would mean that one could not even gift or leave a firearm to their child without going through a background check.

Red flag laws are just begging for abuse. They could be used to unlawfully take guns away from any one of us. I am not sure I like the idea that someone can make a complaint against you and with zero proof the red flag laws can be instituted until you prove you are not a threat.

ralewis wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:46 pm

Grayling813 wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:48 pm Firearms Policy Coalition statement on red flag legislation:
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/fpc-stat ... mp-remarks

Excerpt:

FPC has been and remains strongly opposed to so-called “red flag” laws, also known as “Gun Violence Restraining Order” (GVRO) or “Extreme Risk Protection Order” (ERPO) statutes.

FPC also remains strongly opposed to expanding federal criminal statutes, including but not limited to those mandating “universal background checks”.

These proposed laws do not increase access to mental healthcare or improve public safety. They rely on expanding federal powers through further abuse of the Commerce Clause and are unconstitutional, as well as dangerous.

I'm as pro gun as they come (CHL/LTC for 15 years now), and I've been around here since 2005 reading, learning, and participating in discussions around 2A issues. That being said though, IMO it's important to realize the way things are not the way we want them to be. Social Media and 24/7 news create an amplification effect and has increased the speed issues become front and center. Having several of these mass shooting events over a few weeks in the middle of a Presidential Election cycle has created a wave bigger than we've seen IMO. Our elected officials respond to (perceptions of) public sentiment.

The pragmatist in me sees the tea leaves here, and we all need to do our part to be vocal with our elected officials. We also need to accept the reality that we may be faced with situation where our best option is negotiating for something we want. For example, I'd probably take mandatory background checks and some very tightly scoped and defined "Red Flag" law as long as we got National Reciprocity and a recognition that LTC holders who willingly submit themselves for background checks are recognized as not the problem and have restrictions on where we can carry be reduced.

And I realize i'm going to get hammered here for uttering a scenario entertaining some policies because 'shall not infringe' means what it says. But in the real world we are subject to laws passed (even if the firmly believe they are unconstitutional) else we suffer great inconvenience. I'd actually love to see some constructive dialog on both sides coming at this from a risk management perspective vs a political one.

National Reciprocity? That ship has sailed and is not coming back. I fully expect to see many more 07 and 06 signs going up. If the dems take the senate or potus I am sure we will see another assault “style” weapon ban. Even if that doesn’t happen I think we are going to see a national red flag aka pre crime law. And universal back ground checks. At some point the dems will be in charge again and we are going to see massive curtailment of our 2a rights. Now it’s a matter of what we can hold on to.

03Lightningrocks wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:56 pm

ralewis wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:46 pm
The pragmatist in me sees the tea leaves here, and we all need to do our part to be vocal with our elected officials. We also need to accept the reality that we may be faced with situation where our best option is negotiating for something we want. For example, I'd probably take mandatory background checks and some very tightly scoped and defined "Red Flag" law as long as we got National Reciprocity and a recognition that LTC holders who willingly submit themselves for background checks are recognized as not the problem and have restrictions on where we can carry be reduced.

Universal background checks would mean that one could not even gift or leave a firearm to their child without going through a background check.

Red flag laws are just begging for abuse. They could be used to unlawfully take guns away from any one of us. I am not sure I like the idea that someone can make a complaint against you and with zero proof the red flag laws can be instituted until you prove you are not a threat.

At the risk of being redundant... back to post 1

First order create red flad laws so that weapons can be taken on the word of anonymous complaint

Second order institute universal background checks. This creates defacto registration.

Third order turn off or delay background checks so that no weapons can be sold.

Final solution start picking them up

Senator Graham needs to be reminded that he swore solemn oath to defend the constitution as written against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Anyone who would give up essential liberties for the illusory promise of temporary safety or other benefit deserves neither.

Giving away parts of the constitution every time the socialists throw a tantrum to exploit a tragedy gets them exactly what they want and gets us absolutely nothing of permanence. Any temporary gain like national reciprocity can and would be very easily taken away once the bedrock of our rights and laws is compromised.

We will either stand and fight now or kneel and wait for what comes next.

Stand strong on the constitution as it was written and tell those who want to destroy it to go pound sand.

Excaliber wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:28 am Senator Graham needs to be reminded that he swore solemn oath to defend the constitution as written against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Anyone who would give up essential liberties for the illusory promise of temporary safety or other benefit deserves neither.

Giving away parts of the constitution every time the socialists throw a tantrum to exploit a tragedy gets them exactly what they want and gets us absolutely nothing of permanence. Any temporary gain like national reciprocity can and would be very easily taken away once the bedrock of our rights and laws is compromised.

We will either stand and fight now or kneel and wait for what comes next.

Stand strong on the constitution as it was written and tell those who want to destroy it to go pound sand.

Senator Graham also needs to be reminded that there are people like this out there.

https://bearingarms.com/tom-k/2019/08/0 ... nLMogfcJTk
"Swatting" is not a new concept and using a red flag law against a lawful gun owner would be a sure way to create a confrontation with police. We have people in my town who made similar statements when open carry was passed. Red flag laws would give them the tool of their dreams

Excaliber wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:28 am Senator Graham needs to be reminded that he swore solemn oath to defend the constitution as written against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Anyone who would give up essential liberties for the illusory promise of temporary safety or other benefit deserves neither.

Giving away parts of the constitution every time the socialists throw a tantrum to exploit a tragedy gets them exactly what they want and gets us absolutely nothing of permanence. Any temporary gain like national reciprocity can and would be very easily taken away once the bedrock of our rights and laws is compromised.

We will either stand and fight now or kneel and wait for what comes next.

Stand strong on the constitution as it was written and tell those who want to destroy it to go pound sand.

Hear hear. Gun grabbers don't compromise. They don't ever give us anything we want. They talk about compromise, but what they actually want from us are concessions. No more. It's line in the sand time. Not another inch. There is less violence in this country than at any time in it's history. Mass shootings are extreme outliers and gun homicide is at an all time low. These commies stand on the dead bodies of innocents and spout lies in order to try to disarm us so that they can abolish our form of government and replace it with the Orwellian hellscape they desire. If they don't like it here, they should get out. /rant

Well folks, THIS is the biggest risk to our 2A rights that I've seen in my 57 years on this earth. I have contacted ALL of my elected Texas representatives, as well as others in congress by both Twitter and email. I've also shared my views against ANY "red flag" laws, or other nonsense our feckless republican surrender monkeys are entertaining with the NRA, and all Pro-2A organizations of which I'm aware. I suggest that you ALL do the same. We're about to get railroaded out of a Constitutionally GUARANTEED RIGHT. The black robed politicos won't do a damn thing to stop it. After this one falls, as you know, we are all done. Now is NOT the time to hang our heads and surrender. More people were shot and killed this weekend in the big Dem controlled cities, with NO MEDIA COVERAGE. It's time to take the fight to them with our communications before other approaches are necessary. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER GIVE IN!!!! It's up to us.....

In this article on Townhall.com Kurt Schlichter did a much more eloquent job of making the point than I did in my post a couple of days ago.

It's well worth the read.

bagman45 wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:52 am Well folks, THIS is the biggest risk to our 2A rights that I've seen in my 57 years on this earth. I have contacted ALL of my elected Texas representatives, as well as others in congress by both Twitter and email. I've also shared my views against ANY "red flag" laws, or other nonsense our feckless republican surrender monkeys are entertaining with the NRA, and all Pro-2A organizations of which I'm aware. I suggest that you ALL do the same. We're about to get railroaded out of a Constitutionally GUARANTEED RIGHT. The black robed politicos won't do a damn thing to stop it. After this one falls, as you know, we are all done. Now is NOT the time to hang our heads and surrender. More people were shot and killed this weekend in the big Dem controlled cities, with NO MEDIA COVERAGE. It's time to take the fight to them with our communications before other approaches are necessary. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER GIVE IN!!!! It's up to us.....

Rather than address the mental health issues of a few individuals...ALL lawful citizens must have their rights put into jeopardy.

Trump is treading on dangerous thin re-election ice by supporting/advocating this, increased background checks and a new "assault weapons" ban.
If you're just going to give the socialist anti-2A people what they want, why do we need you?

03Lightningrocks wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:56 pm

ralewis wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:46 pm
The pragmatist in me sees the tea leaves here, and we all need to do our part to be vocal with our elected officials. We also need to accept the reality that we may be faced with situation where our best option is negotiating for something we want. For example, I'd probably take mandatory background checks and some very tightly scoped and defined "Red Flag" law as long as we got National Reciprocity and a recognition that LTC holders who willingly submit themselves for background checks are recognized as not the problem and have restrictions on where we can carry be reduced.

Universal background checks would mean that one could not even gift or leave a firearm to their child without going through a background check.

Red flag laws are just begging for abuse. They could be used to unlawfully take guns away from any one of us. I am not sure I like the idea that someone can make a complaint against you and with zero proof the red flag laws can be instituted until you prove you are not a threat.

Not only would you not be able to gift or leave a firearm after passing on, you would not be able to let anyone "borrow" or even shoot a firearm prior to a background check when you really dig into the details of the laws that these leftists really want. No more going to the range with your buddy and shooting his AR he just built without a background check.

At the end of the day, it is hard to fully blame Trump for his seemingly slim knowledge of guns and the 2nd amendment..he is from New York..he likely hasn't been around guns as much as us here in the United States that follow the constitution.

The REAL reason we refuse to submit to their "sensible background check" bull, is that, as usual, it's a dishonest twisting of language. When WE hear background check, we think about the typical check you go through when actually BUYING a gun through an FFL. Not LOANING or GIVING a gun to a friend or family member, but actually BUYING said gun. What THEY put in ALL of their "background check" bills that is never discussed, is that THEY want ANY AND ALL activities associated with ANY gun to require a "background check", with ALL associated fees, waits and inconvenience. And that is ANY AND ALL!! Including loaning a gun to your buddy for a trip to the range or hunt. Including loaning a gun to a family member being stalked and threatened by a lunatic. Including, at the limits of interpretation (which they WILL use regularly), handing your gun to a buddy at the range for a test run. So NO, we should NEVER give them AN INCH on ANY proposed usurpation or our CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED RIGHTS!!!!

Anybody who votes for a "red flag" politician deserves to reap what they sow. In abundance.

I still haven't heard or seen anything related to the punishment for abuse, fraud, and deciet for those that would seek to weaponize this. The penalties would have to be extremely steep so that it was not abused. But like most left ideas, it's just not there.

abuser: "Hi, 911, I think it's insane that anyone [much less my ex husband who's now dating my best friend] would have so many bullets, there must have been like 50 bullets in the box I saw, and they were big & powerful looking. I can't imagine what he's going to do with them!?!?"

911 operator: "OK lady, we'll send out the swat team to round up him & his stuff and ruin his life- that's plenty of info for us, heck it's more than they had to spy on the President."

If there were realistic safety protocols to prevent abuse, immediate evaluation (by a panel including some right leaning Dr.'s) and a quick and definite process to return everything taken, along with compensation for damages, time, representation, lost wages, etc. and SEVER penalties for abuse, maybe. (but they'd have to absolutely ruin anyone who tried to abuse it) There have been a few times this could have prevented a shooting but still nothing along the lines of preventing Chicago on any random weekend.

I'm not sure you can ever qualify it enough to remove the risk of abuse.....

And this will be why the Republicans lose the next election...

https://www.foxnews.com/media/senator-g ... icide-pact

"Nobody is going to lose their gun unless they have their day in court, but we're not going to create a situation where the cops sit on the sidelines and watch somebody blow up when there are plenty warning signs," Graham responded. "The Second Amendment is not a suicide pact."

Obummer could have easily said that and nobody would have thought it wasn't him.

Lesser of 2 evils, more like evil's twin, but not as ugly, sister.