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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:50 pm
by Liberty
Mithras61 wrote:
Actually, I'm not making his point. The pistol was not the problem, my handling of it was. That didn't and doesn't make the pistol unreliable. The thing is, if I use those same techniques that cause problems in my 1911 in any other pistol, similar problems ensue. Saying I have to do my part by not limp-wristing it, and using my whole hand to shoot is not the same as saying a precise grip is required.
The point here is about reliability, and how we define it. Some handguns are more sensitive to limpwristing than others. I believe that in a combat situation especially if injured one might not hold and fire the gun in a ideal way. I do not believe that a gun that is fussy about ammo, usually needs to be sent to the gunsmith and can't be fired with an ijured hand can be concidered reliable. It may be reliable for a particular owner who has figured out its quirks and learned it.
I have read on this forum from several people who have bought brand new 1911's and then have fired hundreds of rounds trying to find the majic bullet that will feed reliably. hours spent polishing , and then usually sending them off to the smith to get them working like they want. Folks go buy a Glock feed them any old crap fror ammo they go bang and bang again. That doesn't mean that a 1911 can't be reliable and that it doesn't work best for some shooters.
The Topic here is the reliable gun .. the uber reliable. the guns that are burried into the mud and abused and are most likely to work time after time. The guns least likely to break. Its not about the best gun. or even the best carry gun. I am not a glock fan, nor an AK fan, but I have to respect the quality of reliability that is built into them.
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:23 pm
by txinvestigator
I have seen every brand and style of gun malfunction. Usuually operator error.
These are my experiences as an instructor;
Glocks FTE, FTF due to limp wristing. 1911s can do the same with limp wristing. I have seen Sigs, FTE and stovepipe, and fail to lock open after the last round due to the position of the thumbs. I have seen HKs do it too, along with Smiths, Berettas etc., etc.
I have seen revolvers jam up due to lack of care.
The best gun is the one you have trained with, fired enough to know it will go bang, and care for so it WILL go bang.
I knew when you started this thread you would get as many opinions as posters, and it would denigrate into calling out specific brands and styles .
I would carry any of the major brand named guns.
As a student, I have seen ONE pistol go down. It was a Glock with aftermarket "high-speed" parts that were promptly removed after the class. ;)
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:55 pm
by casingpoint
If I was buying another semi automatic pistol, it would be, costs of operation aside, a 357 SIG on account of the virtually absolute reliability of feeding due to the necked down .40 cartridge. Not to mention the efficacy of the standard 125 grain load.You get the rounds in the chamber, I think most name brand pistols will take care of the rest without being unduly concerned with failures, which are bound to happen at times with any weapon.
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:39 pm
by daddySEAL
Guys,
I realize that Any machine could possible experience an anomaly and have and jam. I just titled my initial post subject with the words "jam-proof" to get a consensus of which did it realively Infrequently (rarely)after firing many hundreds of times....that you'd have No doubt trusting your life with them in a self defence critical situation.
If we have't exhausted all the candidates out there yet....please keep your suggestions as CHL users, please!?
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:05 pm
by Bill
Glock, or how about Glock, no maybe a Glock, There is a reason people like Yeager, Hoffner and other tactical trainers will tell you over and over to just save money and get a Glock. I think the are repulsively ugly although my XD sub is no beauty queen. I think Kimbers are purdy but would take the Glock to the Ball.
I my last class with Yeager I shot 3000 rounds in 4 days, the people that showed up with Glocks had little if any problems, we were even throwing the rental Glocks 50ft in the air to prove a point.
Of course this is just an opinion
Re: Beretta PX4 Storm
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:07 pm
by Quick6
kwf2006 wrote:FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact:
Matteo Recanatini, Marketing Manager LE/DoD Division Karen Lutto
(301) 283-2191 ext 1208 (830) 755-4308 (press office)
MRecanatini@Berettausa.com karen@luttopr.com
EXTENSIVE INTERNATIONAL TESTING PROVES THE BERETTA PX4 STORM TO BE EXCEPTIONALLY DURABLE AND RELIABLE
ACCOKEEK, MD (October 08, 2007) — Beretta today announced that is has received documentation from the Italian 'Banco di Prova' that three Beretta PX4 Storm pistols had 30,000 rounds (10,000 per pistol) fired through them with ZERO defects during a specialized ballistic test conducted on behalf of the German State Police. The Italian Banco di Prova, an Italian proof house that oversees and certifies testing for firearms, did the actual testing last month.
This independent testing is further proof of how the Px4 Storm series of pistols truly represents the next generation of handguns, providing a new threshold of durability and reliability for the Law Enforcement and Defense communities.
"The Px4 Storm not only offers Law Enforcement professionals incredible versatility by allowing the operator to fit the gun to his or her hands through any combination of backstraps, controls size and location, actions and calibers, but this pistol offers unprecedented reliability and durability regardless of the Law Enforcement operator and conditions," stated Matteo Recanatini, Marketing Manager, LE/Defense Division. "While we are very pleased with the results of the international testing, we are not surprised by them. This is a very reliable firearm."
Beretta established in 1526, is the oldest industrial dynasty in the world tracing its roots through 16 generations of continuous family ownership. Firearms bearing the Beretta name have been sold for almost 500 years. Beretta USA Corp. was founded in 1977 and supplies the standard sidearm to the U.S. Armed Forces. Today Beretta manufactures, distributes and markets a complete line of firearms, accessories and apparel. Beretta also owns and operates six retail Beretta Gallery stores worldwide. For additional information visit
http://www.berettausa.com.
This is a perfect example of a manufacturer putting out a lemon or two. I had (optimum word) a Beretta PX4 Storm that was a piece of crap. It jammed consistently on me and every other shooter that I let try it. Even after hundreds of rounds of break-in. On the other hand, I have a Beretta 92 FS that has never jammed, after thousands of rounds.
On another note, while my 3" Kimber 1911 was not very reliable out of the box, after a trip back to the manufacturer it has been perfect for over 1000 rounds.
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:25 pm
by Jungle Work
If God made it, it probably won't fail, If man made it, it can and probably will, hence the BUG.
Abject Lesson
http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16785
He returned fire but his service weapon jammed after firing the first shot. As he called for assistance, one of the suspects shot him in the head execution style.
Jungle Work
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:36 pm
by NcongruNt
I was reading some Stephen Camp stuff on one of his web sites, and came across an article regarding the Hi-Power as an excellent gun for defense use. It is important to note that throughout his writings, he mentions on several occasions that his "No. 1" Hi-Power is his most trusted gun.
Here's a snippet from the article:
Considering the current world situation, it's interesting to note the frequent sighting of a Hi Power (or clone) with fighters in the Middle East. The Israelis manufacture their own version of the P-35. It seems reasonable that the pistol would not be quite so popular in these harsh lands of talcum-like sand and AK-47's if they didn't work.
You can read the article in its entirety here:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Ther ... 5%20II.htm
Personally, I've put around 1000 rounds or so through mine so far, and have found it to be a very reliable gun.
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:55 pm
by JasonH
Jungle Work wrote:If God made it, it probably won't fail, If man made it, it can and probably will, hence the BUG.
Abject Lesson
http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16785
He returned fire but his service weapon jammed after firing the first shot. As he called for assistance, one of the suspects shot him in the head execution style.
Jungle Work
My stomach turned reading that. Just awful.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:50 pm
by daddySEAL
Thanks for the PX4 STORM recommendation. I LOVE my rotating barreled Stoeger 8000 Cougar setup.
But if I get another rotating barreled pistol, I'm saving mony for the innovative Slovakian new Grand Power K100 P1.
Thanks
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:29 pm
by Bill
txinvestigator wrote:I have seen every brand and style of gun malfunction. Usuually operator error.
These are my experiences as an instructor;
Glocks FTE, FTF due to limp wristing. 1911s can do the same with limp wristing. I have seen Sigs, FTE and stovepipe, and fail to lock open after the last round due to the position of the thumbs. I have seen HKs do it too, along with Smiths, Berettas etc., etc.
. ;)
I did not know Glocks were subject to limp wrist, as part of my recent course I took, one of the exercises was to fire our pistol with a pencil to prove the point you can hit the target with any finger position even without the finger but maybe I was even holding tighter with one hand, we did several variations of this. I thought about this and remember we were holding just the grip all fingers wrapped around
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:27 am
by nra-life-member
1911 or Browning BHP with Ball ammo - should never fail you!
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:52 am
by JLaw
txinvestigator wrote:
I have seen revolvers jam up due to lack of care.
Very true. Even with a properly maintained revolver, dirt on a round can jam the empty case in the cylinder, making the weapon useless.
Case in point:
Wednesday night IDPA practice, several months back...I dropped a speedloader in the dirt, picked it up (without checking the rounds for debris) and inserted it into the cylinder. Fired six rounds, went to reload, and one round did not eject...the ejector star skipped over one case that was stuck in the cylinder. If memory recalls, that little piece of dirt that stuck the case in the cylinder caused a cool ~35-40 seconds extra just to remove the round.
Revolvers are not immune.
JLaw
Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:50 pm
by Photoman
Guns fail. That's why we carry a backup.
Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:21 am
by iflyabeech
Other than my P3AT, I carry an XD 357 and a Ruger P90. The XD and the Ruger have performed 100%. Doesn't matter who was shooting them, they are always dead on accurate and will function 100% of the time! The Ruger may not be pretty, but it cycles any ammo you put it.