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Wildscar wrote:I think this guy was having a bad day and just want to take it out on the first person that he came across. It just happen to be you. Only thing that sucks now is that he might be watching for you and now you are going to have to watch traffic even closer now.

I wouldn't spend a lot of worry on this. This was an impersonal, random encounter between strangers, not a personal vendetta or gang related one, so there isn't likely to be a lot of personalized emotion after the incident and the chance that the aggressor would look for a follow on encounter is extremely small.

The most likely response from the aggressor here (after he cleans up and changes his underwear) is that he'll reconsider the wisdom of his actions and refrain from creating similar situations in the future which might end more decisively and less in his favor than this one did.

Keith B wrote:

Wildscar wrote: ....Only thing now is that he might be watching for you and now you are going to have to watch traffic even closer now.

Or, he could be saying, 'I ain't gonna road rage again, I could've gotten shot!!'

Well there is that. I just know that people that will act like that might not like losing an encounter. We can hope that the experience has toned him down a bit.

Excaliber wrote:

Wildscar wrote:I think this guy was having a bad day and just want to take it out on the first person that he came across. It just happen to be you. Only thing that sucks now is that he might be watching for you and now you are going to have to watch traffic even closer now.

I wouldn't spend a lot of worry on this. This was an impersonal, random encounter between strangers, not a personal vendetta or gang related one, so there isn't likely to be a lot of personalized emotion after the incident and the chance that the aggressor would look for a follow on encounter is extremely small.

The most likely response from the aggressor here (after he cleans up and changes his underwear) is that he'll reconsider the wisdom of his actions and refrain from creating similar situations in the future which might end more decisively and less in his favor than this one did.

I can with this.

Had a similar situation happen here in Austin. Guy blocked me in on a flyover stopping traffic. I don't have my plastic yet, but I wasn't driving naked. I was trying to weigh my options if the guy had gotten out of his vehicle. 1. Run over him ( I drive a pickup) 2. Roll down my window, yell STOP, leave me alone. 3. Wait till he got to my vehicle, after yelling STOP. Or a combination of these. Thought at first I may have cut the guy off in traffic or something, but I think he was just strung out on something. Thankfully he never got out of his vehicle and drove on harrassing other motorists on I35. Had my cellphone in hand but never called 911.

Keith B wrote:

Wildscar wrote: ....Only thing now is that he might be watching for you and now you are going to have to watch traffic even closer now.

Or, he could be saying, 'I ain't gonna road rage again, I could've gotten shot!!'

One can only hope he would learn from this. Maybe I'm just cynical, but I find myself doubting more every day that people learn from their mistakes.

Excaliber wrote: Forcing the bike off to the curb with a full size vehicle was a very dangerous maneuver and certainly placed the OP in extreme jeopardy. The fact that the driver then exited his vehicle and approached the OP confirmed additional aggressive intent, but the extent of the intended aggression (verbal / physical force / deadly force) was unclear and the aggressor's ability to deliver deadly force once he had exited his vehicle was not clearly established by the facts as provided. It worked out well for everyone that the aggressor had enough working brain cells left to back off before the OP was forced to make a fire / don't fire decision at close range.
Immediately calling the police was definitely the right thing to do to establish the OP as the good guy and the other driver as the aggressor.

After reading the clarifications on vehicle positioning and the input from other bike riders (which I am not) I agree that asleepatthereel made the best available decision under the circumstances by drawing, even though it is arguable whether or not actual use of DF would have been justified at that point. It's another one of those murky situations (like the ATM situation in another recent post) that gives us a terrific opportunity to explore and critique options and improve our own decision making for the future.

This incident was very well handled under extremely challenging circumstances - kudos to asleepatthereel for keeping his cool, thinking his way through changing situation, making good decisions, and acting on them.

I agree that the use of Deadly Force was not justified when the guy got out of the vehicle. But I belive the use force was justified as the OP was physically assaulted by a motor vehicle and the agressor was exiting with unknown intent (could you consider this a threat of force and therefore use of force?).

As to use of Deadly force - it was not justified since the agressor retreated with the OP's use of Force.
If the Agressor did not get back in the car and retreat - We would likely be discussing the justification for the OP's use of Deadly Force.

Asleep - I think you handled it just fine

barres wrote:Maybe I'm just cynical, but I find myself doubting more every day that people learn from their mistakes.

You're spot on, and I agree. People do not learn, in fact, like someone said above, sometimes it makes them more inclined to do it again so they WIN the encounter. Not just that, I think people like excitement (adrenalin, what have you) and find it better than driving home being bored out of their mind. Call it living a fantasy, call it what you want. I think society is becoming more aggressive every day. Especially now with the financial crisis, people are becoming more easily upset, more strung out from lack of sleep, more concerned for their own well being, and more apt to commit crimes if it means helping them and their families. I'm not saying we are in a full on riot but some crazy situations have arisen from less. People just don't care anymore, and prison barely leaves an impact on folks these days.

At the moment you drew your weapon you were not justified. The threat had passed and you would probably be arrested for shooting him and could have for pulling on him. That is my opinion. You should have found a way to leave or deescalate the situation. As it was, you put your CHL and rights at risk by pulling on him. Not to mention the reputation of CHL holders all over the state. I am just looking at it the way a jury would. He didn't run you off the road or try to otherwise harm you. No flame and I am glad you got thru the situation with no one being harmed.

shootthesheet wrote:At the moment you drew your weapon you were not justified. The threat had passed and you would probably be arrested for shooting him and could have for pulling on him. That is my opinion. You should have found a way to leave or deescalate the situation. As it was, you put your CHL and rights at risk by pulling on him. Not to mention the reputation of CHL holders all over the state. I am just looking at it the way a jury would. He didn't run you off the road or try to otherwise harm you. No flame and I am glad you got thru the situation with no one being harmed.

You must not ride to think that a cage acting aggressively against a bike does not constitute deadly force. The cage forced him to the curb and to stop. There is no duty to retreat in Texas. Running away should not be an option.

I believe that what happened is exactly what CHL is for.

shootthesheet wrote:At the moment you drew your weapon you were not justified. The threat had passed and you would probably be arrested for shooting him and could have for pulling on him. That is my opinion. You should have found a way to leave or deescalate the situation. As it was, you put your CHL and rights at risk by pulling on him. Not to mention the reputation of CHL holders all over the state. I am just looking at it the way a jury would. He didn't run you off the road or try to otherwise harm you. No flame and I am glad you got thru the situation with no one being harmed.

OK Im not trying to be argumentative here, but at exactly what point after being forced to a stop in the middle of the night on a dark road, and having the driver exit his vehicle, would I have been justified in drawing on him? In my mind, the next step was getting shot at or assaulted by the driver of the car. I guess I could have jumped off the bike and ran off into the woods or refered him to an anger management counselor, but as I stated, the whole event probably didnt last 15-20 seconds before he was making tracks away from me. As far as I can tell, most everyone else, along with the officer I reported it to said that I was justified in drawing. That is why we have our CHL. To legally use your plastic in self defense is not putting our CHLs or our reputations at risk.

Did you read the entire post? For instance the part where he forced me to a stop? Had there not been a curb there, he WOULD have run me off the road, which incidently would have dropped me about 20 feet down into a creek. To me, that meant that he wanted to inflict serious bodily injury or death to me.

What wouldnt have been justified is immediately opening fire on the vehicle and the person(s) inside. Had I or anyone else done such a thing, then yes, I might think it was unjustified, and if I was on a Jury, I would tend to think that the CHL holder fired because he was mad at the other driver, depending on the circumstances.
That would definately give the CHL community a black eye, not to mention sending the shooter to prison.

Had the guy continued toward me after I yelled at him to stop, and continued agressively toward me, then I would have fired on him and let the jury decide my fate. Luckily for both of us, he saw the error in his ways and left.

asleepatthereel wrote:What wouldnt have been justified is immediately opening fire on the vehicle and the person(s) inside. Had I or anyone else done such a thing, then yes, I might think it was unjustified, and if I was on a Jury, I would tend to think that the CHL holder fired because he was mad at the other driver, depending on the circumstances.
That would definately give the CHL community a black eye, not to mention sending the shooter to prison.

Had the guy continued toward me after I yelled at him to stop, and continued agressively toward me, then I would have fired on him and let the jury decide my fate. Luckily for both of us, he saw the error in his ways and left.

I am not going to give a bunch of commentary. I will just say given what you had, and accounting for all the adrenaline other X factors, I only hope that I could react so swiftly but rationally. Good job and glad no one was hurt or having to face a grand jury.

kalipsocs wrote:

asleepatthereel wrote:What wouldnt have been justified is immediately opening fire on the vehicle and the person(s) inside. Had I or anyone else done such a thing, then yes, I might think it was unjustified, and if I was on a Jury, I would tend to think that the CHL holder fired because he was mad at the other driver, depending on the circumstances.
That would definately give the CHL community a black eye, not to mention sending the shooter to prison.

Had the guy continued toward me after I yelled at him to stop, and continued agressively toward me, then I would have fired on him and let the jury decide my fate. Luckily for both of us, he saw the error in his ways and left.

I am not going to give a bunch of commentary. I will just say given what you had, and accounting for all the adrenaline other X factors, I only hope that I could react so swiftly but rationally. Good job and glad no one was hurt or having to face a grand jury.

The whole thing about the adrenaline still has me thinking. At the time the incident was happening, I didnt feel it, and actually felt pretty steady, which really surprises me. I had always thought that tunnel vision, freezing up, adrenaline causing shakes so severe as to accidentally discharge the weapon, etc would have come into play. I dont think of myself as being a John Wayne/Chuck Norris type of person, and had always thought about how clearly or unclearly the situation would play out if I ever had to use my weapon. As it turned out this time, the adrenaline rush didnt happen until I was on the phone with the PD. Got a little tight chested and shaky, but nothing severe.
I hope there is no next time, and certainly hope I never have to shoot someone, but I do hope that if it happens again, I will remain composed as I did this time.


Everyone reacts differently under stressfull situations. Having worked in the prison system for 15 years, one of the things I am used to doing is playing the 'what if' game. For example, what would I do if confronted by a convict with a weapon? What would my options be? Possible escape routes, areas of good cover, etc. Yes, sometimes it is monotonous and you wonder if you are just passing time, or if any of the scenarios you have played out in your head would ever happen. Now Im glad I spent all those countless hours rehearsing handling dangerous situations. Not that I ever thought this particular scenario would ever play out, but I would like to think it helped.

We all know there are a few people out there with CHLs that only shoot when its time to renew, and think that because they have a gun they are invincible. Unfortunately that is human nature. Take it from me; If there is anything I can pass to any of you, dont just strap on your weopon every day and go about your business. Play the 'what if' game a few times a week when you find yourself with nothing better to do. Go to the range and practice not only on stationary targets, but scenario type things like the action shooters do. I understand Pearland Sportsmans Club has this type of facility, and I will be joining up very soon.

In the meantime, Stay safe, Stay armed, and Stay vigilant about whats going on around you.

asleepatthereel wrote: The whole thing about the adrenaline still has me thinking. At the time the incident was happening, I didnt feel it, and actually felt pretty steady, which really surprises me. I had always thought that tunnel vision, freezing up, adrenaline causing shakes so severe as to accidentally discharge the weapon, etc would have come into play. I dont think of myself as being a John Wayne/Chuck Norris type of person, and had always thought about how clearly or unclearly the situation would play out if I ever had to use my weapon. As it turned out this time, the adrenaline rush didnt happen until I was on the phone with the PD. Got a little tight chested and shaky, but nothing severe.
I hope there is no next time, and certainly hope I never have to shoot someone, but I do hope that if it happens again, I will remain composed as I did this time.

The best current research shows that these effects are directly related to certain heart rate thresholds. When a perceived high threat stimulus automatically engages the sympathetic nervous system, the heart rate goes up. How high it goes up directly impacts performance. Unprepared people experience very sharp increases; trained folks' increases are better managed. In either case, the effects are physiological and will be experienced if certain heart rates are reached.

At 115 beats per minute, fine motor skills (precision and accuracy) deteriorate. As 145 BPM is crossed, complex motor skills deteriorate and visual narrowing occurs. At about 175 BPM auditory exclusion begins and peripheral vision and depth perception are lost. Above this point, cognitive processing fails almost entirely. The fact that you have frequently engaged in "what if" thinking most likely kept your heart rate between 115 and 145 BPM because you knew you had a plan and the situation stayed within the parameters of what you had foreseen.

Controlling the heart rate is the most critical element in managing the stress of combat, and there are breathing techniques for consciously bringing the heart rate down. If you're interested in exploring the psychology and phsyiology of life threatening encounters in greater depth, I'd recommend two books: Sharpening the Warrior's Edge and On Combat.

I think you did the right thing too. You kept your cool, verbally warned him, had your weapon drawn and prepared to use if he made an aggressive move towards you and you didn't shoot.