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Stupid wrote:For those who still like to use shotguns since having a gun is better than nothing, at least get semi-auto - there are many reasons why a semi-auto is so much better than a pump.

One problem. . . most semi-auto shotguns are unreliable during an actual emergency to cycle properly. They are sensitive to the ammo (need lots of recoil) and angle. I'd never trust one for life-and-death situations.

Wouldn't that problem be solved by only keeping on hand loads that would properly cycle? Keep low velocity shells away from your HD gun? I would also think that when your adrenalin is pumping you might have a better chance of not cycling your pump gun. Do recoil issues exist on gas operated shotguns? I know that you have to have sufficient recoil on inertia cycled weapons tfor them to cycle properly.

fickman wrote: One problem. . . most semi-auto shotguns are unreliable during an actual emergency to cycle properly. They are sensitive to the ammo (need lots of recoil) and angle. I'd never trust one for life-and-death situations.

Modern semi-auto is not unreliable.

When using a pump:

1. your pumping sound gives away your position and might cause your target to fire at the sound
2. pump action requires rigorous practice so that under stress you wouldn't under-pump and jam your gun - this happens A LOT
3. when working with your pump action, without adequate practice, it moves your gun away from the target.
4. some may even forget to pump in the adrenaline high.
5. recoil is much worse than semi
6. follow up shots and speed of shooting are seriously impaired because of having to work with the pump. Given the choice, no self-respecting shooter would ever use a pump when shooting for speed. Watch any Skeet Shooting video on youtube.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/163920...amazing_shots/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Still don't believe me? Watch the movie The Matrix Lobby Shooting scene below. Should any of these police officers have used a semi-auto, Neo would be a piece of dead meat. Watch how slow the guy shooting the pump action shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpc1SpDgUIA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still not convinced? Just think hard about why all the armies of the world transited from single shot to bolt action, to semi-auto to full auto on their rifles. Why do they choose full auto over semi over single shot? Three reasons: speed of shooting, ability to keep the gun on target and simplicity of operating the semi and full auto action.

fickman wrote:

Stupid wrote:For those who still like to use shotguns since having a gun is better than nothing, at least get semi-auto - there are many reasons why a semi-auto is so much better than a pump.

One problem. . . most semi-auto shotguns are unreliable during an actual emergency to cycle properly. They are sensitive to the ammo (need lots of recoil) and angle. I'd never trust one for life-and-death situations.

The problem with most semi auto shotguns is the trigger assembly and bolt getting dirty. Not the actual gas system. With The Saiga 12 it doesn't have that problem. The new modern semi auto shotguns though have been eliminating the orings, and the gas system is self regulating to make up for the difference in ammo loads. Id pick it over the pump any day, even the pump has different strokes with different loads so its practice practice practice with the pump, I just don't get to practice that much for pumps so I choose autoloader.

Hmm... well, it took until page four... but now I have decided... no matter what I choose it will be wrong.

Thanks, I'll be here all week, tip your waitress and try the beef.

Stupid wrote:
When using a pump:

1. your pumping sound gives away your position and might cause your target to fire at the sound

So you're saying your shot doesn't give you away, just the sound of pumping a new round into the chamber?

Stupid wrote:2. pump action requires rigorous practice so that under stress you wouldn't under-pump and jam your gun - this happens A LOT

In several years of three gun and shotgun combat matches, I haven't seen it happen that much, where are you shooting that you have seen this so much?

Stupid wrote:3. when working with your pump action, without adequate practice, it moves your gun away from the target.

So? When responding to a threat in your home, without adequate practice, you're probably going to screw up in so many other ways it won't matter. Actually, I use a pump 12 gauge in matches, and have never, even when I was new at it, had a problem staying on target while pumping. I have had semi-autos throw me farther off target than my pump ever did.

Stupid wrote:4. some may even forget to pump in the adrenaline high.

Not if you're somewhat used to the gun. Yes, I'll admit that I transitioned from a pump to a semi-auto in a "strange gun" stage at a match some years ago, and couldn't figure out how to pump the semi until I realized that it loaded itself. But unless you are really used to a semi-auto and take up a strange pump and expect it to cycle itself, you will remember how to pump, particularly if you know your gun.

Stupid wrote:5. recoil is much worse than semi

Maybe, but that would also depend somewhat on the semi-auto, and the "much" is the contentious word, just how much is much? I have shot two different types of shotgun, a semi and a pump, and then transitioned to an M1 Garand, followed by an '03-A3 Springfield in the same match, and I can tell you I hardly noticed the difference. I know other shooters who have experienced the same.

Stupid wrote:6. follow up shots and speed of shooting are seriously impaired because of having to work with the pump. Given the choice, no self-respecting shooter would ever use a pump when shooting for speed. Watch any Skeet Shooting video on youtube.

Once again, practice is key, and I have seen several pump shooters, including the great Tom Knapp, outshoot semi-autos one on one. Your statement is almost as bad as standing next to Jerry Miculek and saying revolvers can't shoot faster than semi-auto pistols.

Plus, the pump gives you the capability of easily cycling the action in case of a misfire or jam, not real easy with a semi-auto.

As for your examples"

Stupid wrote:http://www.metacafe.com/watch/163920...amazing_shots/

That link got a message that the page requested didn't exist, and

Stupid wrote:Still don't believe me? Watch the movie The Matrix Lobby Shooting scene below. Should any of these police officers have used a semi-auto, Neo would be a piece of dead meat. Watch how slow the guy shooting the pump action shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpc1SpDgUIA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Citing fictional movies where people run up walls and do flips through full auto gunfire that is destroying building structure around them makes me wonder if you have lost touch with reality.

Stupid wrote:Still not convinced? Just think hard about why all the armies of the world transited from single shot to bolt action, to semi-auto to full auto on their rifles. Why do they choose full auto over semi over single shot? Three reasons: speed of shooting, ability to keep the gun on target and simplicity of operating the semi and full auto action.

Consider that the US Army never even considered a pump action rifle in that transition, and then also take into account the fact that they have gone away from full auto fire to burst fire. Why? Because full auto does not stay on target. Because "speed of shooting" does NOT equal firepower. and if simplicity were truly a key factor, they would still be using break open actions. Semi and full auto firearms require much more care than their less complicated counterparts, and reward you with jams and malfunctions if you don't take care of them, even the highly touted Kalashnikovs.

But, really, The Matrix???

jimlongley wrote:

Stupid wrote:
When using a pump:

1. your pumping sound gives away your position and might cause your target to fire at the sound

So you're saying your shot doesn't give you away, just the sound of pumping a new round into the chamber?

Stupid wrote:2. pump action requires rigorous practice so that under stress you wouldn't under-pump and jam your gun - this happens A LOT

In several years of three gun and shotgun combat matches, I haven't seen it happen that much, where are you shooting that you have seen this so much?

Stupid wrote:3. when working with your pump action, without adequate practice, it moves your gun away from the target.

So? When responding to a threat in your home, without adequate practice, you're probably going to screw up in so many other ways it won't matter. Actually, I use a pump 12 gauge in matches, and have never, even when I was new at it, had a problem staying on target while pumping. I have had semi-autos throw me farther off target than my pump ever did.

Stupid wrote:4. some may even forget to pump in the adrenaline high.

Not if you're somewhat used to the gun. Yes, I'll admit that I transitioned from a pump to a semi-auto in a "strange gun" stage at a match some years ago, and couldn't figure out how to pump the semi until I realized that it loaded itself. But unless you are really used to a semi-auto and take up a strange pump and expect it to cycle itself, you will remember how to pump, particularly if you know your gun.

Stupid wrote:5. recoil is much worse than semi

Maybe, but that would also depend somewhat on the semi-auto, and the "much" is the contentious word, just how much is much? I have shot two different types of shotgun, a semi and a pump, and then transitioned to an M1 Garand, followed by an '03-A3 Springfield in the same match, and I can tell you I hardly noticed the difference. I know other shooters who have experienced the same.

Stupid wrote:6. follow up shots and speed of shooting are seriously impaired because of having to work with the pump. Given the choice, no self-respecting shooter would ever use a pump when shooting for speed. Watch any Skeet Shooting video on youtube.

Once again, practice is key, and I have seen several pump shooters, including the great Tom Knapp, outshoot semi-autos one on one. Your statement is almost as bad as standing next to Jerry Miculek and saying revolvers can't shoot faster than semi-auto pistols.

Plus, the pump gives you the capability of easily cycling the action in case of a misfire or jam, not real easy with a semi-auto.

As for your examples"

Stupid wrote:http://www.metacafe.com/watch/163920...amazing_shots/

That link got a message that the page requested didn't exist, and

Stupid wrote:Still don't believe me? Watch the movie The Matrix Lobby Shooting scene below. Should any of these police officers have used a semi-auto, Neo would be a piece of dead meat. Watch how slow the guy shooting the pump action shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpc1SpDgUIA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Citing fictional movies where people run up walls and do flips through full auto gunfire that is destroying building structure around them makes me wonder if you have lost touch with reality.

Stupid wrote:Still not convinced? Just think hard about why all the armies of the world transited from single shot to bolt action, to semi-auto to full auto on their rifles. Why do they choose full auto over semi over single shot? Three reasons: speed of shooting, ability to keep the gun on target and simplicity of operating the semi and full auto action.

Consider that the US Army never even considered a pump action rifle in that transition, and then also take into account the fact that they have gone away from full auto fire to burst fire. Why? Because full auto does not stay on target. Because "speed of shooting" does NOT equal firepower. and if simplicity were truly a key factor, they would still be using break open actions. Semi and full auto firearms require much more care than their less complicated counterparts, and reward you with jams and malfunctions if you don't take care of them, even the highly touted Kalashnikovs.

But, really, The Matrix???

Still don't believe me? Watch the movie The Matrix Lobby Shooting scene below. Should any of these police officers have used a semi-auto, Neo would be a piece of dead meat. Watch how slow the guy shooting the pump action shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpc1SpDgUIA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best. Evidence. Ever.

(now excuse me while i watch the clip just for fun)

Edit: The first thing wrong with this argument is the posted link didn't include the awesome soundtrack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqx7j3fOATk0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Second, from what I saw the guy using the pump action seemed like he may as well have been shooting an airsoft gun.
Third, HE'S NEO! He'll stop those shells flat if he doesn't like them.

Stupid wrote:1. your pumping sound gives away your position and might cause your target to fire at the sound

If you don't keep a round chambered, you're going to have to make noise with the semiauto too. If you do keep one chambered, it's just as unsafe as the pump would be.

KD5NRH wrote:

Stupid wrote:1. your pumping sound gives away your position and might cause your target to fire at the sound

If you don't keep a round chambered, you're going to have to make noise with the semiauto too. If you do keep one chambered, it's just as unsafe as the pump would be.

I'm of the camp that, for HD purposes, the sound of working the action on a pump will likely work to your advantage. I believe burglars are looking for easy targets and don't want confrontation. YMMV.

jimlongley wrote:

Stupid wrote:4. some may even forget to pump in the adrenaline high.

Not if you're somewhat used to the gun. Yes, I'll admit that I transitioned from a pump to a semi-auto in a "strange gun" stage at a match some years ago, and couldn't figure out how to pump the semi until I realized that it loaded itself. But unless you are really used to a semi-auto and take up a strange pump and expect it to cycle itself, you will remember how to pump, particularly if you know your gun.

If I have learned anything from these forums, it is that under stress you revert to your training. Whatever you use, you need to train with it. If you never shoot the gun you plan on using as a defense weapon, then yes - you might forget to pump the action. If, however, you spend considerable time training with that very gun, you will revert to that training and are unlikely to suddenly forget to operate it.

I have a Remington 870 for home defense. I've spent considerable time with it, practicing moving/shooting drills, multiple target drills, transition drills, and shooting from various positions. I'm quite confident with my ability to make rapid successive shots and keep them on target. Because I've trained with this gun and continue to do so, I have no doubt it will serve me quite sufficiently were the need to arise, and that I will have no issues with forgetting to operate the gun.

Hey NcongruNt, I just recently put on a Mesa 6 shot side saddle shell holder and a Hogue Fore-end on my 870!!!! . That fore-end makes a BIG difference in the way it handles now.

NcongruNt wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

Stupid wrote:4. some may even forget to pump in the adrenaline high.

Not if you're somewhat used to the gun. Yes, I'll admit that I transitioned from a pump to a semi-auto in a "strange gun" stage at a match some years ago, and couldn't figure out how to pump the semi until I realized that it loaded itself. But unless you are really used to a semi-auto and take up a strange pump and expect it to cycle itself, you will remember how to pump, particularly if you know your gun.

If I have learned anything from these forums, it is that under stress you revert to your training. Whatever you use, you need to train with it. If you never shoot the gun you plan on using as a defense weapon, then yes - you might forget to pump the action. If, however, you spend considerable time training with that very gun, you will revert to that training and are unlikely to suddenly forget to operate it.

I have a Remington 870 for home defense. I've spent considerable time with it, practicing moving/shooting drills, multiple target drills, transition drills, and shooting from various positions. I'm quite confident with my ability to make rapid successive shots and keep them on target. Because I've trained with this gun and continue to do so, I have no doubt it will serve me quite sufficiently were the need to arise, and that I will have no issues with forgetting to operate the gun.

Practice, Practice, Practice.

Sometimes individuals use a shotgun for HD but never practice with that weapon. It is just as important to practice with it just as you would with your carry.

Stupid wrote:

fickman wrote: One problem. . . most semi-auto shotguns are unreliable during an actual emergency to cycle properly. They are sensitive to the ammo (need lots of recoil) and angle. I'd never trust one for life-and-death situations.

Modern semi-auto is not unreliable.

When using a pump:

1. your pumping sound gives away your position and might cause your target to fire at the sound
2. pump action requires rigorous practice so that under stress you wouldn't under-pump and jam your gun - this happens A LOT
3. when working with your pump action, without adequate practice, it moves your gun away from the target.
4. some may even forget to pump in the adrenaline high.
5. recoil is much worse than semi
6. follow up shots and speed of shooting are seriously impaired because of having to work with the pump. Given the choice, no self-respecting shooter would ever use a pump when shooting for speed. Watch any Skeet Shooting video on youtube.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/163920...amazing_shots/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Still don't believe me? Watch the movie The Matrix Lobby Shooting scene below. Should any of these police officers have used a semi-auto, Neo would be a piece of dead meat. Watch how slow the guy shooting the pump action shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpc1SpDgUIA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still not convinced? Just think hard about why all the armies of the world transited from single shot to bolt action, to semi-auto to full auto on their rifles. Why do they choose full auto over semi over single shot? Three reasons: speed of shooting, ability to keep the gun on target and simplicity of operating the semi and full auto action.

Um...its a movie..you do realize not a single piece of lead went ANYWHERE in that entire scene! In fact the "granite" walls they managed to shred in that scene were actually sheets of painted Styrofoam over pneumatic rams, it took them like 30 something takes to get that scene "just right"

The "pump" shotgun the cop was using was actually a SPAS-12 which is both a semi and pump, the directors though it would be more "dramatic" if the cop was pumping it instead of using the semi-auto setting..plus the blanks they were using wouldn't cycle the semi-auto action anyway

Matrix....heh

Oh...who needs a gun when you can do this

Furyataurus wrote:Hey NcongruNt, I just recently put on a Mesa 6 shot side saddle shell holder and a Hogue Fore-end on my 870!!!! . That fore-end makes a BIG difference in the way it handles now.

I've got an upgrade for mine slated for this weekend, as long as nothing else comes up. I've been wanting a Knoxx SpecOps stock for my 870 for a while. In addition to the pistol grip (which means I need to practice some more once I get it ), it's got a recoil compensation system built in that is supposed to make even magnum loads incredibly easy on your shoulder. Cabela's carries them for $120, and I'm going to pick one up Friday or Saturday and hit the range.

http://www.knoxx.com/products/SpecOps_Stock.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've got a side saddle shell holder for mine as well, but haven't messed with the fore-end at all - I'm quite happy with the one I have on mine already. What kind of fore-end did you get, and what makes it better? I'm guessing that it's rubberized.