TexasCHLforum.com

marksiwel wrote:I think its time for organizations like the NRA to branch out and support personal freedoms, like gay marriage, smaller government, less taxes, freedom of speach, freedom of privacy ect to get more people on "The gun side" so that way liberals know that they cant touch gun issues with a 10 foot pole, and Republicans know they cant Wiretap people without warrants without losing the gun vote.

Why in the world would they do that? The NRA is a single-issue organization. "Branching out" would dilute their effectiveness and risk losing focus.

We are talking about two different things here fellas. The politicians, on both the left and the right, who want a totalitarian state, and the average voter. Sure, the guy in power who wants to put his boot on our necks is not afraid of guns per se, he just wants absolute control and the first step to getting that is to disarm the public.
My comments are referring to the average American citizen. The waitress, the bank teller, the construction worker who may be leaning to the left politically and feel that gun control is prudent. I believe that most people who fall into that category have little to no experience around guns and have a fear of them based on that lack of experience. The politicians who want gun control for political power will prey on the fears of these voters, but I think that we, as gun owners have the ability to counter that by educating our friends who may fall into this category.
We are in the United States of America, and even the most black hearted politicians are still at the mercy of the voter. If we do nothing to help advance gun rights education among the fearful segment of our voting public, we will enable the politicians with dreams of absolute control to take our guns away. At that point, it won't matter what any of us think.

karder wrote:The waitress, the bank teller, the construction worker who may be leaning to the left politically and feel that gun control is prudent. I believe that most people who fall into that category have little to no experience around guns and have a fear of them based on that lack of experience.

I am married to a bank teller, who is a former waitress :)

Anyway, yeah, we might be able to ease their fears and get them to become ambivalent about gun control, and perhaps even if something happens in their life to make them think that maybe they need a gun then they might actually actively oppose gun control, BUT THEY WILL STILL VOTE FOR POLITICIANS WHO ARE ANTI-GUN BECAUSE THOSE POLITICIANS SUPPORT THE REST OF THEIR POLITICAL POSITIONS.

And that's the point. Someone afraid of guns is perhaps also afraid of being poor, afraid of not having health insurance, afraid of not being able to get ahead in their job, afraid of this, that, and the other thing, and they are going to vote for politicians who promise to do whatever to allay these fears. So what if they suddenly are not afraid of guns? They will still vote for the same people in spite of their new-found gun beliefs.

That's because ideologically, gun rights are part and parcel of individual liberty, which is the other side of the coin opposite individual responsibility. So we all know that either we have liberty, and we also have responsibility, or we have neither. And I think most Americans would happily give up liberty in exchange for also giving up responsibility. We just passed a health care bill that makes this point.

I certainly can't disagree with your main points. It is very hard to get people to change their voting patterns strictly on one issue, be it gun control or anything else. I think you are correct in your position that those with liberal slantings will likely vote liberal and accept everything that comes with it. This is where the NRA and similar organizations are very important. They organize voters. A politician only sees a 3 million voter block and this does affect how they vote. Gun control comes in a series of small steps. Maybe the best action is to convenience our liberal friends to join the NRA rather than attempt to convert. Probably an easier thing to do that to get someone to abandon a life time of political ideology. If we could get a million moderate liberals as NRA members, we might make the biggest impact.

Thinking about this, it does raise an interesting point. How did 2A rights become a conservative position? What is it that makes this conservative and not liberal? After all, liberals are generally for more freedom and individual rights (witness the ACLU).

I know there are true liberals out there that will disagree with conservatives on almost every political position except that they also support gun rights. And then there are a lot of middle of the road people who have some positions on the liberal side and some on the conservative side. But they also support gun rights.

For the liberals and the moderates on both sides of the aisle, the question is not how to convert them. There are large groups who already support 2A rights. The question is how to convince them to make this their top priority when voting. Most gun rights people are quick to point out that the Second is the one right that guarantees the others. But, if a person really does not believe that the US government will ever become a tyranny, how do you convince them that this should be their top issue?

Obviously, I really do not care how the other person feels on abortion, religion, welfare, health care, or a bunch of other issues, if I want him as an ally on this issue. But I do want him to place this much higher on his scale of priorities. This is what i see as the problem we need to address. As gun rights supporters, we do not want to convert liberals, just change their priorities list to be closer to what we want.

I may want to convert their beliefs on other issues, but from recent polls, the majority of the people agree with us on this. We just need them to place this higher on prioritization. And if we can agree on this goal, we can agree on tactics to get there as the next step.

Gun control - it's more about the CONTROL than it is about the guns.

IT's very heartening to see the national polls where people are smart enough
to realize that there are aready enough gun laws, but they see a revolving
door justice system where felons commit multiple crimes with firearms,
and are back on the street faster than you can complete a driver's ed class
to finish your speeding ticket.

Converting liberal friends to love the 2A will not put the Republicans back
in the White House in 2012. Crushing deficits will do that.

But if the Reps get back in, I have no faith in them at all to be fiscally
conservative, scale back govt programs, or manage the country's infra
structure needs.

The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn.
The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.
P. J. O'Rourke

SIA

srothstein wrote:Thinking about this, it does raise an interesting point. How did 2A rights become a conservative position? What is it that makes this conservative and not liberal? After all, liberals are generally for more freedom and individual rights (witness the ACLU).

I think it happened when GCA '68 was passed in direct response to the assassination deaths of three people, all of whom were considered liberal icons: JFK, MLK, and RFK.

Somehow that made gun control a litmus test of "liberal legitimacy".

Gun rights isn't completely about guns. Personal ownership of guns is about second amendment issues much as it is social issues. The friction is generated when someone tries to make it all about one and nothing about the other. General acceptance will come from a balance between the two views, not from one side overcoming the other.

It's been my experience, like when I won the debate with a DPS officer and he went from totally opposed to CHL, to being 100% in favor (no this is not a misprint and there have been others) that the change precedes or follows a paradigm shift...an epiphany if you will. Such a shift would necessitate at least a basal if not complete change in political underpinnings.

BUT and this is a big one, make sure you are talking to someone who is seeking understanding, otherwise you are talking to a fool and God doesn't want us talking to fools (I've been spending some times in Proverbs and Psalms lately). Not to mention the humongous waste of time and bitterness you would gather.

srothstein wrote:How did 2A rights become a conservative position?

Bingo, that's what I'm talking about srothstein. Judging from your handle/username, you're probably Jewish. I'm glad that you're Jewish, because I also wonder why the heck do most Jews that I know oppose 2nd Amendment rights? It seems to me that most Jews should be all for 2nd Amendment rights. After all, if 6 million Jews had guns in WWII, wouldn't the children of 6 million Jews still be alive today?

No, I don't expect to change the way people think and vote in one conversation. It takes many conversations. Rome wasn't won in a day. Talk to your friends and make new friends. Let's get out there and win some hearts and minds, people.

I know how to convert women to support 2nd Amendment causes, but how do I convert Jews? I have a Jewish friend who is vehemently anti-2nd Amendment. How would I win his heart and mind?

Thanks for the advice, srothstein,