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fagancarco wrote:I have seen the sign at only one Chilis. I didn't check to see if it was valid, just took my gun back to the car. Your advice is sound nevertheless,with one caveat.

Just as an old or improperly worded 30.06 makes it legal to carry in a establishment, a 51% sign improperly placed would do the same. I see no real difference. IMO

I'm open to correction if there's a legal opinion out there somewhere, or wording in the law I haven't seen.

Actually, no it does not. A 51% sign must match the license. In other words, if the liquor license does not say SIGN=RED, then the location is NOT a 51% location, sign or not. If the license says SIGN=BLUE and they have a 51% sign up, it carries the same weight as a gun-buster or other non-enforceable sign. The type of beverage sign that is to be posted is not at the discretion of the owner, but directed by TABC law.

In the case of a 30.06 sign, that is placed at the discretion of the owner of the property. So, if you see a 30.06 you must abide by it until you are told differently by the owner and given permission to pass that sign. A bar owner cannot give you permission to carry past a valid 51% sign.

fagancarco wrote:I have seen the sign at only one Chilis. I didn't check to see if it was valid, just took my gun back to the car. Your advice is sound nevertheless,with one caveat.

Just as an old or improperly worded 30.06 makes it legal to carry in a establishment, a 51% sign improperly placed would do the same. I see no real difference. IMO

I'm open to correction if there's a legal opinion out there somewhere, or wording in the law I haven't seen.

You are wrong. See my comments above about "defense to prosecution."

CHL law doesn't make it legal to carry a concealed pistol. What it does is give you a defense to prosecution if you do......so long as you have the CHL license. Carrying the concealed handgun is still illegal. That is the legal default. You just have a defense to being prosecuted for it if you have the plastic.

Similarly, if a valid 30.06 is posted inside the premises rather than at the entrance, the CHL holder has a valid "defense to prosecution" if he enters the premises. BUT....once he is inside and sees the valid sign, he has now been given effective notice, and the only way he can continue to have a defense to prosecution is to leave immediately. If he stays, he is not only in violation of the law, but he also no longer has the defense to prosecution.

And as importantly, he can no longer make the moral claim to being a law-abiding person. You either are, or you aren't. There really isn't a gray area in-between. If you find that you are not supposed to be there and you don't leave immediately, then you are willfully breaking the law.

Just calling a spade a spade.....

Keith B wrote: If it is not valid, then I would inform Management of their error. If they don't remove the sign, then contact the local TABC office and ask them to have the business properly post the locale.

I think I would not tell the management anything. I am not one of the "they will post 30.06!!!" folks, but the odds of a manager being the ultimate decision maker at most restaurants are pretty slim. I had success by just telling TABC that I found the signs at my local place extremely confusing and that it seemed like they had too many posted. As always...just an opinion.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

fagancarco wrote:I have seen the sign at only one Chilis. I didn't check to see if it was valid, just took my gun back to the car. Your advice is sound nevertheless,with one caveat.

Just as an old or improperly worded 30.06 makes it legal to carry in a establishment, a 51% sign improperly placed would do the same. I see no real difference. IMO

I'm open to correction if there's a legal opinion out there somewhere, or wording in the law I haven't seen.

You are wrong. See my comments above about "defense to prosecution."

CHL law doesn't make it legal to carry a concealed pistol. What it does is give you a defense to prosecution if you do......so long as you have the CHL license. Carrying the concealed handgun is still illegal. That is the legal default. You just have a defense to being prosecuted for it if you have the plastic.

Similarly, if a valid 30.06 is posted inside the premises rather than at the entrance, the CHL holder has a valid "defense to prosecution" if he enters the premises. BUT....once he is inside and sees the valid sign, he has now been given effective notice, and the only way he can continue to have a defense to prosecution is to leave immediately. If he stays, he is not only in violation of the law, but he also no longer has the defense to prosecution.

And as importantly, he can no longer make the moral claim to being a law-abiding person. You either are, or you aren't. There really isn't a gray area in-between. If you find that you are not supposed to be there and you don't leave immediately, then you are willfully breaking the law.

Just calling a spade a spade.....

So, tying that in with your previous post , it would follow that one is also a "spade" if they enter any establishment carrying a weapon that has posted a not quite legal 30.06 and you know what their intent is.

Even a handprinted "No Guns Allowed" should do the trick for the truly "law abiding person".

No, an invalid 30.06 sign is an invalid 30.06 sign. It is no different than the gun busters signs...it does not apply to someone who is lawfully carrying their illegally concealed handgun that the CHL license gives defense to prosecution...?

No wait, are we unlawfully carrying, or lawfully carrying according to the laws of Texas? As far as I know, it is legal carry, right? TAM, you usually do not confuse me, but this might be the time. I know we have a lot of "defense to prosecution" depending on our circumstances, but are you saying the actual act of carrying a concealed weapon while licensed by the State of Texas to do so...is actually illegal?

RJ

fagancarco wrote:Just as an old or improperly worded 30.06 makes it legal to carry in a establishment, a 51% sign improperly placed would do the same. I see no real difference. IMO

I'm open to correction if there's a legal opinion out there somewhere, or wording in the law I haven't seen.

Other than the phrase "makes it legal" I agree. There's a defense to prosecution if the 51% sign doesn't meet the Section 411.204, Government Code requirements for notice, much like the defense to prosecution in 30.05 for CHL .

Consider a bar that fails to post 51% signs at the entrances and a store that posts a not-quite 30.06 sign in English (only) with 1/2" letters. Other than the potential penalty, I see no significant difference between carrying in the bar and carrying in the store, with regard to legality, ethics, or good manners.

Keith B wrote:

fagancarco wrote:I have seen the sign at only one Chilis. I didn't check to see if it was valid, just took my gun back to the car. Your advice is sound nevertheless,with one caveat.

Just as an old or improperly worded 30.06 makes it legal to carry in a establishment, a 51% sign improperly placed would do the same. I see no real difference. IMO

I'm open to correction if there's a legal opinion out there somewhere, or wording in the law I haven't seen.

Actually, no it does not. A 51% sign must match the license. In other words, if the liquor license does not say SIGN=RED, then the location is NOT a 51% location, sign or not. If the license says SIGN=BLUE and they have a 51% sign up, it carries the same weight as a gun-buster or other non-enforceable sign. The type of beverage sign that is to be posted is not at the discretion of the owner, but directed by TABC law.

In the case of a 30.06 sign, that is placed at the discretion of the owner of the property. So, if you see a 30.06 you must abide by it until you are told differently by the owner and given permission to pass that sign. A bar owner cannot give you permission to carry past a valid 51% sign.

Thank you. That's about as clear a distinction as I've heard.