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flintknapper wrote:Yellow Bellied Water Snake.




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Something in the back of my mind is telling me this is backwards... O(f course the back of mind has been there for decades so no promises...

Maxwell wrote:

flintknapper wrote:Yellow Bellied Water Snake.




.

Something in the back of my mind is telling me this is backwards... O(f course the back of mind has been there for decades so no promises...

You are probably thinking about the distinction (for identifying purposes) between the Anal Plate and the Under Tail Scaling.

Some folks wrongly point to the 'Anal Plate' being a method by which to I.D. which is INCORRECT.

The correct method involves inspecting the Under Tail Scaling AFTER the anal plate. Even then....the single row scale pattern can in some cases be divided right at the end of the tail, but the fact that successive single scales are present is proof enough.

AJSully421 wrote:

I swear...
STOP TALKING ABOUT SNAKE PUPILS!!!! STOP IT, STOP IT, STOP IT!!!
At a glance, what shape would you describe this obvious Water Moccasin's pupils as?

Elliptical and dilated.

Do you disagree that all indigenous pit vipers have elliptical pupils? And if they do (they do) that it can be used as a reliable identifying feature? I'm not arguing that it isn't up to the observer to 'correctly' make the distinction.

Next, how about this one? What shape would you describe this shedding Water Moccasin's pupils as??? Go ahead, take a stab at it...

Elliptical, under the 'eye caps' that have formed prior to shedding/molting, that snake is not yet shedding. Your point of course being you can not see the pupils. The answer then is obvious: If you can't see the pupils (for ANY reason) then you can't use that method of identification. That does not make it invalid, just means you'll need to make other observations, yes?

The point is that it is foolish, and even dangerous to say things like "look at the pupils" since people will try and use this supposed info in the field and could get themselves hurt because of it.

The point remains....there are only a couple of reliable methods by which to determine if an indigenous snake (excepting the Coral Snake) is venomous. The pupil shape and the After Tail Scaling. No one is asking or suggesting anyone handle a snake or get too close to it in order to use these methods. If you have any doubt, leave the snake alone.

As was correctly stated, there are only four venomous snakes that are native to North America. Learn to differentiate them at a glance without using stupid stuff like pupils, or insanely unhelpful information like what their anal vent looks like.

This will work fine for the Coral Snake, it is so distinct from all the other indigenous venomous snakes that it is not a problem. The Coral snake could be easily confused with certain other non-venomous snakes with similar colors (but different patterns), but not with the three Pit Vipers we have in the U.S.

Rattlesnakes...of which there are quite a few subspecies are generally easy to I.D. as well. Provided you can see the tail and that the snake has rattles intact. The pygmy rattler being an exception, because of its small size and diminutive rattles, but any mature rattler...most folks will correctly I.D.

The Copperhead (with its five subspecies) is usually pretty easy to I.D. so I would agree that general physical attributes (length, color, pattern, head shape) make it an easy snake to learn.

But when we come to the Water-moccasin/Cottonmouth all bets are off. A juvenile Moccasin will often look nothing like a mature individual in either color, markings or size. There are a plethora of non-venomous snakes with colors or patterns that closely mimic that of the Moccasin and will fool many folks. Its a plain fact that more snakes are mis-identified (and killed) as Moccasins than any other snake. Hence the need to educate folks on what to look for.

Learn to use things like shape, size, coloration, scale keeling, and behavior...

Yes, often these things (in combination) will point to one species or another. And someone as practiced as you or I would be able to tell. But the novice outdoorsman will not take the time to educate themselves and will not have enough encounters with snakes for things like coloration and behavior to mean anything to them. So....some 'positive' way of knowing is needed.

We can argue how 'useful' a particular method is with respect to use in the field. But there is no argument to be had concerning the accuracy of one method over the other.

or just kill them all and move on.

Presumably... you say that 'tongue in cheek'. Most snakes we come across are harmless. All are beneficial in one form or another. The indiscriminate killing of snakes is something we wish to avoid. There are circumstances where it is necessary...I understand.

Maxwell wrote:

Kenneth77 wrote:Was cleaning up this weekend and found this little guy under some old boards and i thought at first cotton mouth but he didn't seem angry like they usually are and also did not have have the bright white mouth when he struck once so i put him in the creek and let him go on his way.

That a Cottonmouth, also known as a Water Moccasin. Very poisonous and very mean. Kill it!

Then clean your shorts...

Max

It was very calm snake he was more interested in getting away than in me and only stuck at me twice because i had a shovel in its face , the few cotton mouths i have been in contact with where totally different they was coming at me fast

While weed whacking, I came across a nest of snakes. It turns out using a weed whacker to dispatch snakes is a bad idea..... snake bits flying everywhere!!!

FuziDave wrote:While weed whacking, I came across a nest of snakes. It turns out using a weed whacker to dispatch snakes is a bad idea..... snake bits flying everywhere!!!

HAHAHA!

FuziDave wrote:While weed whacking, I came across a nest of snakes. It turns out using a weed whacker to dispatch snakes is a bad idea..... snake bits flying everywhere!!!

I can tell you from experience that a 'Chainsaw' is another tool not ideally suited to the dispatch of snakes. Or IF you decide to use one, consider this advice: USE THE TOP OF THE BAR! Otherwise...the chain WILL snatch the snake right back around your feet.

Weedeaters with a Counterclockwise rotation....will also arrange a 'meeting' with you and the snake (or snake parts).

Kenneth77 wrote:

Maxwell wrote:

Kenneth77 wrote:Was cleaning up this weekend and found this little guy under some old boards and i thought at first cotton mouth but he didn't seem angry like they usually are and also did not have have the bright white mouth when he struck once so i put him in the creek and let him go on his way.

It was very calm snake he was more interested in getting away than in me and only stuck at me twice because i had a shovel in its face , the few cotton mouths i have been in contact with where totally different they was coming at me fast

Kenneth, you did the right thing....and I applaud you for not summarily killing it. Though that snake is a reasonable representation of a medium size Cottonmouth, it lacks the 'pit', I can see even from the photo...it has a round pupil, as you noted it did not have a white mouth. The tail is too long and slender and the snake is flattening its head to make itself look bigger.

Still, I would not blame anyone for killing that particular snake based on a 'first impression'. You exercised good restraint and clearly have respect for the ecosystem and creatures not causing any immediate harm. Good job!

Well i do have a lot of respect for all animals more than some humans , the previous weekend i shot a copperhead and the shot shells went though the plastic under pinning and hit a real nice grass snake and that really made me sick and i felt real bad about that .

flintknapper wrote:

Maxwell wrote:

flintknapper wrote:Yellow Bellied Water Snake.



.

Something in the back of my mind is telling me this is backwards... O(f course the back of mind has been there for decades so no promises...

You are probably thinking about the distinction (for identifying purposes) between the Anal Plate and the Under Tail Scaling.

Some folks wrongly point to the 'Anal Plate' being a method by which to I.D. which is INCORRECT.

The correct method involves inspecting the Under Tail Scaling AFTER the anal plate. Even then....the single row scale pattern can in some cases be divided right at the end of the tail, but the fact that successive single scales are present is proof enough.

So I can't find my snake book but a little research matches your. I stand corrected.

flintknapper wrote:

Kenneth77 wrote:

Maxwell wrote:

Kenneth77 wrote:Was cleaning up this weekend and found this little guy under some old boards and i thought at first cotton mouth but he didn't seem angry like they usually are and also did not have have the bright white mouth when he struck once so i put him in the creek and let him go on his way.

It was very calm snake he was more interested in getting away than in me and only stuck at me twice because i had a shovel in its face , the few cotton mouths i have been in contact with where totally different they was coming at me fast

Kenneth, you did the right thing....and I applaud you for not summarily killing it. Though that snake is a reasonable representation of a medium size Cottonmouth, it lacks the 'pit', I can see even from the photo...it has a round pupil, as you noted it did not have a white mouth. The tail is too long and slender and the snake is flattening its head to make itself look bigger.

Still, I would not blame anyone for killing that particular snake based on a 'first impression'. You exercised good restraint and clearly have respect for the ecosystem and creatures not causing any immediate harm. Good job!

I try not to kill any snakes even venomous ones, if I can help it. We even relocated some copperheads from our campsite at summer camp a few years ago. The camp had a mini hepertarium set up in their nature center area, and allowed us to place three of them in terrariums for the duration of the camp. This allowed the scouts to see the various snakes in the area and be able to identify them. After the week was up, the snakes were moved to areas away from camp so as to avoid any meet ups with future campers. They had also had someone catch a western diamondback which was, at the time, thought not to inhabit that part of Oklahoma. There was quite a variety of snakes there including water snakes. We never saw any moccasins, but we were told they had been found there.
My wife, on the other hand, is not a fan of snakes, and feels that the world would be much better off if they were eradicated. I remember when my son was about 2 I was building a fence and he was "helping" by pulling his wagon with tools and materials for me. I came upon a corn snake under some leaves, picked it up,and was showing it to my son when my wife arrived on the scene. I think if she could have found a willing police officer she would have had me arrested for child abuse. (After she stopped screaming of course)