TexasCHLforum.com

OneGun wrote:

Pariah3j wrote:lildave40 - sounds like you were thinking on your feet and handled the situation beautifully.

I would like to point out something, not as an attack on what you did, but more as food for thought. You have the right to meet force with force. They threatened bodily harm and had a weapon that could back that threat up. Now it sounds like they weren't within striking distance yet, so drawing your weapon and using it might not have been appropriate yet, but displaying your firearm I believe would have been within the bounds of the law - ie drawing it and leveling it at them while giving verbal commands or keeping it a low ready would have been justified IMO because you are meeting their force (3v1 plus possible deadly weapon and threat of violence). IANAL, this isn't legal advise just my understanding of the law. If I'm wrong, I hope someone can correct me.

I'm not picking you on personally, but I'm raising the question on this notion of distance. What distance is "striking distance" with a knife or a club? There are a number of videos showing that in an attack with a knife or club, etc. that inside of 15 to 20 feet, a person, even a police officer does not have enough time to draw from holster and fire before the attacker strikes. In my earlier post, I linked a video of police officers going through a knife attack drill and even trained police officers that attempted to draw their gun were unsuccessful inside of 15 to 20 feet. Another video, this time from Mythbusters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyDpIi5QNpw

Back to my original question: What is striking distance for a knife or club? Or how much distance to I need to draw my gun, even if I was a skilled gun fighter?

Too many folks underestimate the attacker's speed and overestimate their own ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

As an artilleryman, my preferred engagement distance is 18 kilometers; the nominal maximum range of the M109A5. Not having my howitzer with me, I have to rely on my ability with my pistol. Through training and practice, I know I can draw and get two A-Zone hits in 2 seconds or less at self-defense range. On my best day. However, in a dimly lit parking lot or other less than optimal setting, I think I will want to be at count 2 of my draw stroke when I feel "force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force."

OP survived, no one was hurt. Good job.

oljames3 wrote: OP survived, no one was hurt. Good job.

Mom and child got away unharmed

OneGun wrote:

Pariah3j wrote:lildave40 - sounds like you were thinking on your feet and handled the situation beautifully.

I would like to point out something, not as an attack on what you did, but more as food for thought. You have the right to meet force with force. They threatened bodily harm and had a weapon that could back that threat up. Now it sounds like they weren't within striking distance yet, so drawing your weapon and using it might not have been appropriate yet, but displaying your firearm I believe would have been within the bounds of the law - ie drawing it and leveling it at them while giving verbal commands or keeping it a low ready would have been justified IMO because you are meeting their force (3v1 plus possible deadly weapon and threat of violence). IANAL, this isn't legal advise just my understanding of the law. If I'm wrong, I hope someone can correct me.

I'm not picking you on personally, but I'm raising the question on this notion of distance. What distance is "striking distance" with a knife or a club? There are a number of videos showing that in an attack with a knife or club, etc. that inside of 15 to 20 feet, a person, even a police officer does not have enough time to draw from holster and fire before the attacker strikes. In my earlier post, I linked a video of police officers going through a knife attack drill and even trained police officers that attempted to draw their gun were unsuccessful inside of 15 to 20 feet. Another video, this time from Mythbusters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyDpIi5QNpw

Back to my original question: What is striking distance for a knife or club? Or how much distance to I need to draw my gun, even if I was a skilled gun fighter?

Well 'striking distance' I believe would be left up to the situation, I left it vague because I wasn't there. IMO one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle for self-defense with a firearm in most cases would be imminent danger - they have to reasonably possess the means and be close enough to use those means. Someone with a gun poses a much greater risk at a much longer distance then someone with a melee weapon. once again I am talking in very vague sweeping terms, I know there are other factors that might justify shooting in self-defense.

And just to be clear, I was advocating that OP had grounds to draw at that point, not wait for the attacker to close in. Pointing the gun at the threat or pulling it out at low ready and giving commands to leave/backup up sound like they would have been justified.

Sorry if what I'm trying to say is coming out muttled or unclear. Its been a frustrating day at work dealing with users so my blood pressure is up.

Pariah3j wrote:
Well 'striking distance' I believe would be left up to the situation, I left it vague because I wasn't there. IMO one of the biggest pieces of the puzzle for self-defense with a firearm in most cases would be imminent danger - they have to reasonably possess the means and be close enough to use those means. Someone with a gun poses a much greater risk at a much longer distance then someone with a melee weapon. once again I am talking in very vague sweeping terms, I know there are other factors that might justify shooting in self-defense.

And just to be clear, I was advocating that OP had grounds to draw at that point, not wait for the attacker to close in. Pointing the gun at the threat or pulling it out at low ready and giving commands to leave/backup up sound like they would have been justified.

Sorry if what I'm trying to say is coming out muttled or unclear. Its been a frustrating day at work dealing with users so my blood pressure is up.

No need to apologize. I concur with your opinion that the OP had grounds to draw his gun. I'd even say the OP had grounds to shoot since the attacker presented a pipe as a weapon and demanded money. At this point, the attacker has gone from a robbery to aggravated robbery by presenting a deadly weapon. This forum presents many scenarios about what might happen, could have happened. I'm trying to think about how far in feet I have to back up to put distance between me and the attacker to have to draw my gun. From what I've observed in the videos I've seen, I have to walk backwards and keep 20 feet from me and it helps if the attacker does not pounce until he sees my drawn gun. Element of surprise can be an aid.

I'm glad that the OP's incident ended without anyone getting hurt. I live not too far from the incident. Since the floods destroyed so many homes and businesses near me, I've been carrying even when I walk our German Shepherd.

I found it interesting to read everyone's response to the OP. Lots of varied opinions here among this group. I'm thankful that it turned out well for the OP, and most especially for the lady he helped. My hat is off to you sir.

As for how any of us would have handled it, I don't think I would truly know what I would do until I'm in those shoes. I've never drawn my weapon in defense, but I have uncovered it and put my hand on it once. I'm pretty sure I would have at least put my hand on my gun as soon as the one BG pulled out a pipe. I would have probably have even drawn and kept it pointed toward the ground.

Here's to hope that none of us ever have to use deadly force. And here's to hope that if any of us ever need to, we are ready.

lildave40 wrote:

bblhd672 wrote:What did law enforcement say when they arrived?

When the attendant came back she said she called. Waiting 20 minutes and no show so I left. Yes I left my information with the clerk.

And this is exactly why everyone needs to carry, all the time. LE can't always be there to protect us from harm. Sometimes we need to put on our big boy / big girl pants and protect ourselves.

oljames3 wrote:

OneGun wrote:

Pariah3j wrote:lildave40 - sounds like you were thinking on your feet and handled the situation beautifully.

I would like to point out something, not as an attack on what you did, but more as food for thought. You have the right to meet force with force. They threatened bodily harm and had a weapon that could back that threat up. Now it sounds like they weren't within striking distance yet, so drawing your weapon and using it might not have been appropriate yet, but displaying your firearm I believe would have been within the bounds of the law - ie drawing it and leveling it at them while giving verbal commands or keeping it a low ready would have been justified IMO because you are meeting their force (3v1 plus possible deadly weapon and threat of violence). IANAL, this isn't legal advise just my understanding of the law. If I'm wrong, I hope someone can correct me.

I'm not picking you on personally, but I'm raising the question on this notion of distance. What distance is "striking distance" with a knife or a club? There are a number of videos showing that in an attack with a knife or club, etc. that inside of 15 to 20 feet, a person, even a police officer does not have enough time to draw from holster and fire before the attacker strikes. In my earlier post, I linked a video of police officers going through a knife attack drill and even trained police officers that attempted to draw their gun were unsuccessful inside of 15 to 20 feet. Another video, this time from Mythbusters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyDpIi5QNpw

Back to my original question: What is striking distance for a knife or club? Or how much distance to I need to draw my gun, even if I was a skilled gun fighter?

Too many folks underestimate the attacker's speed and overestimate their own ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

As an artilleryman, my preferred engagement distance is 18 kilometers; the nominal maximum range of the M109A5. Not having my howitzer with me, I have to rely on my ability with my pistol. Through training and practice, I know I can draw and get two A-Zone hits in 2 seconds or less at self-defense range. On my best day. However, in a dimly lit parking lot or other less than optimal setting, I think I will want to be at count 2 of my draw stroke when I feel "force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force."

OP survived, no one was hurt. Good job.

18 kilometers is way too close. My unit was equipped with 8 inch howitzers. 25 kilometers is much more comfy.

Soccerdad1995 wrote:

oljames3 wrote:

OneGun wrote:

Pariah3j wrote:lildave40 - sounds like you were thinking on your feet and handled the situation beautifully.

I would like to point out something, not as an attack on what you did, but more as food for thought. You have the right to meet force with force. They threatened bodily harm and had a weapon that could back that threat up. Now it sounds like they weren't within striking distance yet, so drawing your weapon and using it might not have been appropriate yet, but displaying your firearm I believe would have been within the bounds of the law - ie drawing it and leveling it at them while giving verbal commands or keeping it a low ready would have been justified IMO because you are meeting their force (3v1 plus possible deadly weapon and threat of violence). IANAL, this isn't legal advise just my understanding of the law. If I'm wrong, I hope someone can correct me.

I'm not picking you on personally, but I'm raising the question on this notion of distance. What distance is "striking distance" with a knife or a club? There are a number of videos showing that in an attack with a knife or club, etc. that inside of 15 to 20 feet, a person, even a police officer does not have enough time to draw from holster and fire before the attacker strikes. In my earlier post, I linked a video of police officers going through a knife attack drill and even trained police officers that attempted to draw their gun were unsuccessful inside of 15 to 20 feet. Another video, this time from Mythbusters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyDpIi5QNpw

Back to my original question: What is striking distance for a knife or club? Or how much distance to I need to draw my gun, even if I was a skilled gun fighter?

Too many folks underestimate the attacker's speed and overestimate their own ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

As an artilleryman, my preferred engagement distance is 18 kilometers; the nominal maximum range of the M109A5. Not having my howitzer with me, I have to rely on my ability with my pistol. Through training and practice, I know I can draw and get two A-Zone hits in 2 seconds or less at self-defense range. On my best day. However, in a dimly lit parking lot or other less than optimal setting, I think I will want to be at count 2 of my draw stroke when I feel "force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force."

OP survived, no one was hurt. Good job.

18 kilometers is way too close. My unit was equipped with 8 inch howitzers. 25 kilometers is much more comfy.

Pershing 1a. 450 miles.

oljames3 wrote:

Soccerdad1995 wrote:

oljames3 wrote:

OneGun wrote:

Pariah3j wrote:lildave40 - sounds like you were thinking on your feet and handled the situation beautifully.

I would like to point out something, not as an attack on what you did, but more as food for thought. You have the right to meet force with force. They threatened bodily harm and had a weapon that could back that threat up. Now it sounds like they weren't within striking distance yet, so drawing your weapon and using it might not have been appropriate yet, but displaying your firearm I believe would have been within the bounds of the law - ie drawing it and leveling it at them while giving verbal commands or keeping it a low ready would have been justified IMO because you are meeting their force (3v1 plus possible deadly weapon and threat of violence). IANAL, this isn't legal advise just my understanding of the law. If I'm wrong, I hope someone can correct me.

I'm not picking you on personally, but I'm raising the question on this notion of distance. What distance is "striking distance" with a knife or a club? There are a number of videos showing that in an attack with a knife or club, etc. that inside of 15 to 20 feet, a person, even a police officer does not have enough time to draw from holster and fire before the attacker strikes. In my earlier post, I linked a video of police officers going through a knife attack drill and even trained police officers that attempted to draw their gun were unsuccessful inside of 15 to 20 feet. Another video, this time from Mythbusters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyDpIi5QNpw

Back to my original question: What is striking distance for a knife or club? Or how much distance to I need to draw my gun, even if I was a skilled gun fighter?

Too many folks underestimate the attacker's speed and overestimate their own ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect

As an artilleryman, my preferred engagement distance is 18 kilometers; the nominal maximum range of the M109A5. Not having my howitzer with me, I have to rely on my ability with my pistol. Through training and practice, I know I can draw and get two A-Zone hits in 2 seconds or less at self-defense range. On my best day. However, in a dimly lit parking lot or other less than optimal setting, I think I will want to be at count 2 of my draw stroke when I feel "force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force."

OP survived, no one was hurt. Good job.

18 kilometers is way too close. My unit was equipped with 8 inch howitzers. 25 kilometers is much more comfy.

Pershing 1a. 450 miles.

GLCM 1,600 miles. (This can go on and on and on...)

I love this!
This is a great illustration of the quote: "Society is safer when criminals don't know who is armed."
The OP did not draw his weapon and did not have to.
The bad guys didn't know if he was carrying or not, but decided to act as if he was.

Had this been NYC or Chicago, the bad guys probably would have taken a chance that the man wasn't armed.
But this is Texas, and the chances are very good that the good guy would be armed.

Here is some food for thought, all of us on this forum are pro-self-defense advocates, all of us carry a gun for protection.
With the varied views of having your hand on your pistol or being at low ready, openly displaying your side arm or keeping it concealed until use of force is implemented!
With that said now imagine going before a jury of twelve if you had to use deadly force!
SCARY HUH?

crazy2medic wrote:Here is some food for thought, all of us on this forum are pro-self-defense advocates, all of us carry a gun for protection.
With the varied views of having your hand on your pistol or being at low ready, openly displaying your side arm or keeping it concealed until use of force is implemented!
With that said now imagine going before a jury of twelve if you had to use deadly force!
SCARY HUH?

Especially since jury could consist of 7 or more anti gun liberals. Very very scarry!

I wonder if the gentleman had been OC would the pipe have even made an appearance. I submit not it would not have.

Jay2121 wrote:I wonder if the gentleman had been OC would the pipe have even made an appearance. I submit not it would not have.

Good point. Since OC is relatively new, I wouldn't count my lack of threats as evidence. But so far when I have OC'ed I have not even had a hint of a problem. But I should say that for me that is not the norm because I have to CC at work.

One of the men says what your gonna shoot us all?

Nope just you, cause when I do your buddies are going to start running and I'm not gonna shoot them in the back.