TexasCHLforum.com

SewTexas wrote:

mojo84 wrote:VMI77, here's a question for you. If you got out to your car and your battery was dead, would you bum a jump from a stranger or just go back in to buy a new battery?

Not being confrontational, just thought it would be interesting to explore how committed you are to your conviction of not bumming something from a stranger.

My point is, not everyone is as hardcore independent as some. Look at the video of the college girl you posted demading free college.

not VM, but still answering....

my husband would hope the person parked near us would be a gentleman and ask him, he would never ask a woman, he would feel it would intimidate her. He would probably wait about 10 -15 mins then call a friend.

So, you have no doubt the guy was going to do something bad? You have no question in your mind that the lady did right by pulling her gun? Neither would I ask a woman and would wait until someone offered. But not everyone is like VM, your husband or me. Why do people zero in on one comment that I made that just acknowledges the mere possibility the guy was just really interested in a light? What if she had shot him? Would you be as convinced it was justified.

I think the guy should not have engaged the woman and I think she may be justified in her actions. However, those are just my opinions and I don't know for sure.

rp_photo wrote:"Police said he never got closer than 10 feet"

That's close enough to be an imminent threat per the often-mentioned 21-foot rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

If only the law followed the 21-foot rule.

I don't think I've ever said that I have "no doubt", I've said that I have my suspicions about the guy.

I think the lady did what "she" felt she needed to do to keep herself safe. When we start putting limits on old ladies and their safety, then we need to go back to that thread from a few weeks ago about the elderly and guns and really study those answers and see if we really believe them.

I also recognize that I wasn't there and I don't know all of the facts. It's entirely possible that when all of the facts are known that my opinion may change.

mojo84 wrote:VMI77, here's a question for you. If you got out to your car and your battery was dead, would you bum a jump from a stranger or just go back in to buy a new battery?

Not being confrontational, just thought it would be interesting to explore how committed you are to your conviction of not bumming something from a stranger.

My point is, not everyone is as hardcore independent as some. Look at the video of the college girl you posted demading free college.

That depends on the particular situation. If it was dead because, say, I left the lights on, and I was certain I didn't need a new battery I might ask someone for a jump --at least there have been times in the past where I would have. These days I have a jump starter in my car, along with a floor jack, fix a flat, and an air compressor (6 flats in the past year). I also have duct tape, hose clamps, spare batteries, lights, water, and basic tools.

It's more than just an issue of bumming something...I don't like to be dependent on anyone, especially a stranger. In my much younger days my vehicles weren't particularly reliable and I wasn't always driving some place where I could expect any help, or afford it, so I carried the means of making whatever basic repairs were necessary to get me home. I also used to sail offshore where there are no tow trucks or mechanics you can call if something is broken or doesn't work.

However, if I did ask, I'd ask a man, not a woman. I would also ask in the store first. Some stores have jump starters as a customer courtesy. In fact, the last time I needed a jump was years ago in the Whole Foods parking garage in Austin, and the store jumped the car for me with a portable starter. I didn't ask people in the parking lot for a jump. This would also be a better choice for a woman who needed help starting her car than asking a random stranger in the parking lot.

I don't see asking for a light as analogous though for two reasons. If your car won't start because you've got a dead battery you're stranded and need help. You may not be stranded where you could even get a new battery and it's relatively expensive even if you can. No one "needs" to smoke, that's a habit you choose. How much does a box of matches or a disposable lighter cost? I don't know since I haven't purchased either in years, but I suspect it's not more than a couple bucks.

More importantly, if I did need help, I'd ask a man for it, not put a woman in the position of having to deal with a stranger with unknown intentions. And if I did approach a woman in a parking lot under any circumstances, I'd keep my distance, and I'd try to keep a barrier between us.....for instance, addressing her from the other side of her car --for her protection mostly, but also for my own to avoid misunderstandings.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

EEllis wrote:So even if by some bizarre stretch . . .

Really? Again? You just can't type without being confrontational. Don't post or PM an excuse, just stop.

Chas.

I'll admit when I overstep. This is not one of those times. You want to unevenly apply your policies then go ahead, but there is nothing wrong with that comment.

VMI77 wrote:

mojo84 wrote:VMI77, here's a question for you. If you got out to your car and your battery was dead, would you bum a jump from a stranger or just go back in to buy a new battery?

Not being confrontational, just thought it would be interesting to explore how committed you are to your conviction of not bumming something from a stranger.

My point is, not everyone is as hardcore independent as some. Look at the video of the college girl you posted demading free college.

That depends on the particular situation. If it was dead because, say, I left the lights on, and I was certain I didn't need a new battery I might ask someone for a jump --at least there have been times in the past where I would have. These days I have a jump starter in my car, along with a floor jack, fix a flat, and an air compressor (6 flats in the past year). I also have duct tape, hose clamps, spare batteries, lights, water, and basic tools.

It's more than just an issue of bumming something...I don't like to be dependent on anyone, especially a stranger. In my much younger days my vehicles weren't particularly reliable and I wasn't always driving some place where I could expect any help, or afford it, so I carried the means of making whatever basic repairs were necessary to get me home. I also used to sail offshore where there are no tow trucks or mechanics you can call if something is broken or doesn't work.

However, if I did ask, I'd ask a man, not a woman. I would also ask in the store first. Some stores have jump starters as a customer courtesy. In fact, the last time I needed a jump was years ago in the Whole Foods parking garage in Austin, and the store jumped the car for me with a portable starter. I didn't ask people in the parking lot for a jump. This would also be a better choice for a woman who needed help starting her car than asking a random stranger in the parking lot.

I don't see asking for a light as analogous though for two reasons. If your car won't start because you've got a dead battery you're stranded and need help. You may not be stranded where you could even get a new battery and it's relatively expensive even if you can. No one "needs" to smoke, that's a habit you choose. How much does a box of matches or a disposable lighter cost? I don't know since I haven't purchased either in years, but I suspect it's not more than a couple bucks.

More importantly, if I did need help, I'd ask a man for it, not put a woman in the position of having to deal with a stranger with unknown intentions. And if I did approach a woman in a parking lot under any circumstances, I'd keep my distance, and I'd try to keep a barrier between us.....for instance, addressing her from the other side of her car --for her protection mostly, but also for my own to avoid misunderstandings.

I recognize your position and am in agreement even though I am not as prepared as you. However, I recognize, not everyone is like us and that doesn't necessarily make them a robber or mugger.

The world may be better off if everyone was like us but that's not the case. Just because someone does something we wouldn't, doesn't mean they are a dangerous criminal. The lady may have been right or she may have overreacted. We do not know.

n5wd wrote:

rp_photo wrote:"Police said he never got closer than 10 feet"

That's close enough to be an imminent threat per the often-mentioned 21-foot rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

If only the law followed the 21-foot rule.

It's actually not a "rule".

mojo84 wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

mojo84 wrote:VMI77, here's a question for you. If you got out to your car and your battery was dead, would you bum a jump from a stranger or just go back in to buy a new battery?

Not being confrontational, just thought it would be interesting to explore how committed you are to your conviction of not bumming something from a stranger.

My point is, not everyone is as hardcore independent as some. Look at the video of the college girl you posted demading free college.

That depends on the particular situation. If it was dead because, say, I left the lights on, and I was certain I didn't need a new battery I might ask someone for a jump --at least there have been times in the past where I would have. These days I have a jump starter in my car, along with a floor jack, fix a flat, and an air compressor (6 flats in the past year). I also have duct tape, hose clamps, spare batteries, lights, water, and basic tools.

It's more than just an issue of bumming something...I don't like to be dependent on anyone, especially a stranger. In my much younger days my vehicles weren't particularly reliable and I wasn't always driving some place where I could expect any help, or afford it, so I carried the means of making whatever basic repairs were necessary to get me home. I also used to sail offshore where there are no tow trucks or mechanics you can call if something is broken or doesn't work.

However, if I did ask, I'd ask a man, not a woman. I would also ask in the store first. Some stores have jump starters as a customer courtesy. In fact, the last time I needed a jump was years ago in the Whole Foods parking garage in Austin, and the store jumped the car for me with a portable starter. I didn't ask people in the parking lot for a jump. This would also be a better choice for a woman who needed help starting her car than asking a random stranger in the parking lot.

I don't see asking for a light as analogous though for two reasons. If your car won't start because you've got a dead battery you're stranded and need help. You may not be stranded where you could even get a new battery and it's relatively expensive even if you can. No one "needs" to smoke, that's a habit you choose. How much does a box of matches or a disposable lighter cost? I don't know since I haven't purchased either in years, but I suspect it's not more than a couple bucks.

More importantly, if I did need help, I'd ask a man for it, not put a woman in the position of having to deal with a stranger with unknown intentions. And if I did approach a woman in a parking lot under any circumstances, I'd keep my distance, and I'd try to keep a barrier between us.....for instance, addressing her from the other side of her car --for her protection mostly, but also for my own to avoid misunderstandings.

I recognize your position and am in agreement even though I am not as prepared as you. However, I recognize, not everyone is like us and that doesn't necessarily make them a robber or mugger.

The world may be better off if everyone was like us but that's not the case. Just because someone does something we wouldn't, doesn't mean they are a dangerous criminal. The lady may have been right or she may have overreacted. We do not know.

And to be clear, I'm not without doubt in this situation, as you said yourself, we don't know enough to come down on one side or the other. I've been approached many times in parking lots by strangers....sometimes their intentions have been clearly benign or helpful, most other times, suspicious. Most of the time I've been wary, and in those times it would have been prudent for a woman to be even more wary and cautious.

On at least two occasions I'm pretty sure I was being "interviewed." The first time was in an isolated parking lot in Tulsa and I was unarmed. While this guy spun his nonsensical story I kept my eyes on his hands and would not have been surprised if he'd produced a knife. Whether he was only trying to bum some money or had something more nefarious in mind and realized I wasn't going to be an easy mark I'll never know. That was back before I even knew what an "interview" was. These days I wouldn't have listened to his nonsense and just told him to buzz off.

Since getting my CHL I've been approached several times. I've never felt the need to draw on anyone or even hint that I am armed. That includes a situation where a guy stopped his car on the road in front of me and blocked me, jumped out of his car, and came up to my window shouting at me. I was armed that time and never even considered mentioning I was armed or displaying a weapon. I felt fully capable of administering a beat down if he made that necessary...no weapon needed. In this particular case I would also not have drawn or hinted I even had a weapon (this assumes he didn't make a threat to do violence since no such specific threat was mentioned). OTOH, I'm not a female, and though it's been awhile, I've been in fights before, and had some training in self-defense, including boxing and wrestling in college.

n5wd wrote:

rp_photo wrote:"Police said he never got closer than 10 feet"

That's close enough to be an imminent threat per the often-mentioned 21-foot rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

If only the law followed the 21-foot rule.

My son tells me it's 10 feet per the TV show Justified.

Didn't the MythBusters do a segment on this?

I used to think 21 ' was excessive. After training, I know 21'is a minimum.

As I have opined on several occasions, none of us, man, woman or child, young or old, are more exposed, more vulnerable than when we are alone with our backs turned to the world loading our vehicles.

That said, since I wasn't there when this incident happened, With the information available,I have to think that if the woman erred, she erred on the side of caution. The cops should be ordered to attend classes on public safety and service....after they make public apologies to the lady.

I'm done

yep

MONGOOSE wrote:I used to think 21 ' was excessive. After training, I know 21'is a minimum.

Even an older and slower old phart like me can cover 21 feet in a very short time.

EEllis wrote:Oh, she pulled a gun because a black man approached her. In daylight, With lots of people around her. When he never within 10 feet of her.


The security video showed Crutchfield walking past McLain, then turning toward her. But he did not approach her more make any threatening gestures, the police report stated.

Once McClain pulled the gun, it said, Crutchfield can be seen walking backwards, away from her, with his hands in the air, until he sees Miller and her child. The police report states the video shows McClain lowering her gun until Crutchfield reaches Miller and yells at her, then she again points the gun in his direction, while he was standing next to the woman and child.

So even if by some bizarre stretch you could excuse her initial response, that she again pointed her gun at a man, who basically ran away yelling "She's got a gun!", as he stood next to a bystander with a child is enough in my mind to show she broke the law.

Playing devil's advocate, the fact that the man ran away yelling she's got a gun and then ran in the store and called 911 is probative of nothing. Assume for the moment that he had every intention of robbing her. She puts out her hand, tells him to stop, then produces a weapon and yells that she will shoot him if he doesn't stop. He, knowing that he's lost the advantage, then turns and walks away until he sees a woman with a child. Seizing the advantage, he yells she's got a gun startling the women with the child and directing her attention to the person with the gun.

Now he's accomplished several things which help him. He's deescalated and reduced the chances of being shot, he's diverted attention from himself to the person with the gun, he's influenced the perspective of the woman with the child (she pointed the gun at me!) and he's cast the woman in the role of the bad guy.

Now he goes into the store and calls 911 and viola! He lives to rob another day, and his victim is now under arrest.

Mind you, I am most certainly not claiming that this is what happened. I'm merely pointing out that the possibility exists, and one's perspective of the event may have been distorted by his actions.